Mach V and Hammerhead BP
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"I'm confused. Generally speaking as valve access get better head clearance gets worse. I've seen a number of reports about Jet Plates and lack of head clearance, none referencing valve access issues."
Me too, I think we are saying the same thing, as to the two pice sta, drill another set of holes and drop the upper one down.
"Out of curiosty How does a cottom harness (looks cool BTW) differ in terms of clearance, valve access and rolling?"
What cotton harness are you talking about----do you mean this one?
It is very comfortable and correctly positions the double hose regulator but is not within the scope of this thread--lol.
"Why? Our plate does both well."
NO, just like the Jet plate fellow, no, I don't think so, if it uses an adapter on top of that center ridge then it is placig the single tank to far out and aside from that, lowering the tank causes the top edge of the plate to interfere with the first stage or the double hose cans and with either type regulator this can also pinch the wing made worse by the odd idea that single tank wings should have a top center hose connection---wrong.
BTW, a friend of mine custom makes those original harness in several styles and colors and can be fitted for a variety of tank sizes including the aluminum 80 for travel use. They work just fine with a single hose for diving without a BC or with a horsecollar BC. The run 65 to 80 dollars.
N
Me too, I think we are saying the same thing, as to the two pice sta, drill another set of holes and drop the upper one down.
"Out of curiosty How does a cottom harness (looks cool BTW) differ in terms of clearance, valve access and rolling?"
What cotton harness are you talking about----do you mean this one?
It is very comfortable and correctly positions the double hose regulator but is not within the scope of this thread--lol.
"Why? Our plate does both well."
NO, just like the Jet plate fellow, no, I don't think so, if it uses an adapter on top of that center ridge then it is placig the single tank to far out and aside from that, lowering the tank causes the top edge of the plate to interfere with the first stage or the double hose cans and with either type regulator this can also pinch the wing made worse by the odd idea that single tank wings should have a top center hose connection---wrong.
BTW, a friend of mine custom makes those original harness in several styles and colors and can be fitted for a variety of tank sizes including the aluminum 80 for travel use. They work just fine with a single hose for diving without a BC or with a horsecollar BC. The run 65 to 80 dollars.
N
cool_hardware52
Contributor
Nemrod:
Nemrod,
I don't think you are familiar with our goods. Our Plates are very low profile, and do not require a STA, or any other adapter that moves the tank away from the diver.
I've never had any interference problems with any modern first stage, I can't really say about Double Hose regs, I can see where that might be a problem.
A centered hose connection offers easy venting without any "shoulder roll".
Tobin
Well, I went to your webiste and I don't see anything different from that plate vs a dozen others. If your wing has those little bars in it to keep it from rolling perhaps it stays lower(without an sta) but I don't see anything special there to prevent a single tank from rolling about without a sta anymore so than my Hammerhead. The Mark Meadows has an inverted channel that is made for a single tank. Your plate is a doubles plate, the narrow protruding ridge on it makes that evident and thus places the tank quite far from the back, and, I am afraid I would need a sta on that plate.
Not a condemnation of your product, it looks like a fine plate and you have good products and prices. I notice the same thing described on the Jet Plates website, that no doubles plate is ever going to set a single tank correctly. For one thing, the top edge of the plate needs to be scalloped out to set the plate high enough. Like plates of past times, the plate needs to be bent/molded/inset to allow a single tank to nest down securely. Your's simply does not do that. Your plate is virtually identical to my Hammerhead. I flattened mine out, it looks just like yours.
The tank needs to sit lower and closer, that is what started this thread, the only way to do that is to make the plate specifically for a single tank. I know I am confusing you and that you don't understand what I am saying, perhaps I should get out the camera--lol.
Let me see, a singles plate would not need to be square, it would not have that protruding ridge, it would not need a sta. It would be H or dog bone shaped, it would be scalloped at the top edge, the tank groove would be inverted ( upside down W) and it would be smaller and more narrow. A wing for a single would ideally not have the hose exiting the wing right adjacent to the regulator first stage, an area already occupied by plenty of stuff already, including regulator hoses and wing bladder without trying to stuff an inflator hoses, and corrugated hoses and plastic keeper in there also.
Not trying to argue with you, I just think different and unfortunately that gets me in trouble on scubaboard. N
Not a condemnation of your product, it looks like a fine plate and you have good products and prices. I notice the same thing described on the Jet Plates website, that no doubles plate is ever going to set a single tank correctly. For one thing, the top edge of the plate needs to be scalloped out to set the plate high enough. Like plates of past times, the plate needs to be bent/molded/inset to allow a single tank to nest down securely. Your's simply does not do that. Your plate is virtually identical to my Hammerhead. I flattened mine out, it looks just like yours.
The tank needs to sit lower and closer, that is what started this thread, the only way to do that is to make the plate specifically for a single tank. I know I am confusing you and that you don't understand what I am saying, perhaps I should get out the camera--lol.
Let me see, a singles plate would not need to be square, it would not have that protruding ridge, it would not need a sta. It would be H or dog bone shaped, it would be scalloped at the top edge, the tank groove would be inverted ( upside down W) and it would be smaller and more narrow. A wing for a single would ideally not have the hose exiting the wing right adjacent to the regulator first stage, an area already occupied by plenty of stuff already, including regulator hoses and wing bladder without trying to stuff an inflator hoses, and corrugated hoses and plastic keeper in there also.
Not trying to argue with you, I just think different and unfortunately that gets me in trouble on scubaboard. N
cool_hardware52
Contributor
Nemrod:
Take another look.
Take another look.Nemrod:
Nemrod, This is getting a little tiresome. Repeatedly you have made statements about DSS gear without understanding how it works. You would not need a STA any more than of our many many happy users who are diving DSS single rigs right out of the box without STA's or other adapters, or other modification.Nemrod:
I might suggest you educate yourself a bit before making such statements. If you have questions I'd be happy to answer them.
That's just not true. A properly designed system of wing and plate allows secure mounting of a single tank to our plate without adapters, or modification.Nemrod:
No it does not, in short you are displaying your ignoranceNemrod:
No it is not. How can you possible say such things without apparently ever having had your hands on one of our plates? I doubt you will find others who have seen a HH plate and a DSS plate side by side making such an ill informed statement.Nemrod:
No, that's not the only way. It might be the only way you can conceive of, but that does not mean it's the only way.Nemrod:
It doesn't. Typically the corrigated hose is just above the "break" in the tank, and below the first stage, at least with modern regs.Nemrod:
We have 100's of users successfully, securely mounting single tanks to our backplates without STA's or other adapters. Many of these same users also use their plates with doubles. Perhaps they can do a better job of explaining our gear to you.
Tobin
OK, let me try, here are some pics. In the first picture notice how far up on the shoulder the upper strap is despite my sta being in the lower hole.
OK, now notice in this picture that despite being on the shoulder the BP itself is still quite a bit lower than I would like. I would like for it to rest with the top edge even with or just below the neck. Cannot do with this design because the plate would run into the double hose body or the single hose first stage and constrict the bladder as well.
Another view with the bladder inflated, notice how the bladder is bulging from the front of the regulator, it does this with my AL Legend as well.
Here notice the general layout and configuration, now imagine if the wing were very narrow across the top with an offset hose, then imagine the plate at least four or more inches higher and imagine it without that center groove/ridge or instead turned the other direction.
Another view.
And just for kicks, neutral bouyancy without a BC. Photo below taken by David Haas, amateur and professional photographer and very skilled diver and clearly skilled photographer. Nemrod in the lead and William coming up on my six diving double 38s. Oh, the regulator in the upper pictures is a Phoenix Royal Aqua Master, the ultimate open circuit regulator.
N
OK, now notice in this picture that despite being on the shoulder the BP itself is still quite a bit lower than I would like. I would like for it to rest with the top edge even with or just below the neck. Cannot do with this design because the plate would run into the double hose body or the single hose first stage and constrict the bladder as well.
Another view with the bladder inflated, notice how the bladder is bulging from the front of the regulator, it does this with my AL Legend as well.
Here notice the general layout and configuration, now imagine if the wing were very narrow across the top with an offset hose, then imagine the plate at least four or more inches higher and imagine it without that center groove/ridge or instead turned the other direction.
Another view.
And just for kicks, neutral bouyancy without a BC. Photo below taken by David Haas, amateur and professional photographer and very skilled diver and clearly skilled photographer. Nemrod in the lead and William coming up on my six diving double 38s. Oh, the regulator in the upper pictures is a Phoenix Royal Aqua Master, the ultimate open circuit regulator.
N
"Nemrod, This is getting a little tiresome."
Well, I am sorry, I thought we were having a conversation, if not let me know.
You brought up yur gear, I am talking about such gear in general, you specified yours and took the offense while I have done nothing but compliment your gear even if we disagree on some specific attribute. So, again, I don't understand then, how does your plate--YOUR plate--since you insist---not require an STA? or is different in that regard from othere such plates? With or without an STA, the ridge places the tank higher than it needs to be in my OPINION. If you don't like it well I am sorry.
"It doesn't. Typically the corrigated hose is just above the "break" in the tank, and below the first stage, at least with modern regs."
Uh, that is what began this, that is true only with the tank hiked up behind your head, lower the tank down and see for yourself.
"No, that's not the only way. It might be the only way you can conceive of, but that does not mean it's the only way."
Well, then show me.
"That's just not true. A properly designed system of wing and plate allows secure mounting of a single tank to our plate without adapters, or modification."
Again, show me, the STA is not the culprit, the entire doubles optimized design with that high central ridge is the problem--for a single.
N
Well, I am sorry, I thought we were having a conversation, if not let me know.
You brought up yur gear, I am talking about such gear in general, you specified yours and took the offense while I have done nothing but compliment your gear even if we disagree on some specific attribute. So, again, I don't understand then, how does your plate--YOUR plate--since you insist---not require an STA? or is different in that regard from othere such plates? With or without an STA, the ridge places the tank higher than it needs to be in my OPINION. If you don't like it well I am sorry.
"It doesn't. Typically the corrigated hose is just above the "break" in the tank, and below the first stage, at least with modern regs."
Uh, that is what began this, that is true only with the tank hiked up behind your head, lower the tank down and see for yourself.
"No, that's not the only way. It might be the only way you can conceive of, but that does not mean it's the only way."
Well, then show me.
"That's just not true. A properly designed system of wing and plate allows secure mounting of a single tank to our plate without adapters, or modification."
Again, show me, the STA is not the culprit, the entire doubles optimized design with that high central ridge is the problem--for a single.
N
Again, now using the MODERN Aqua Lung Legend, notice the huge gap in question between the top of the plate and the regulator. I would prefer the plate sit higher and with the groove removed or inverted there would still be room for a narrow wing with offset dump/fill hose.
Tobin, I am sorry, you don't like my thoughts, the equipment you represnt was never being critised beyond that which is generic for all such gear of that type.
Raising the plate would in my opinion, improve balance, reduce head banging and keep the tank closer to the body if the groove were removed or inverted and that is all I am going to say because as typical it becomes a fuss, I thought we were sharing ideas, oh well. N
Tobin, I am sorry, you don't like my thoughts, the equipment you represnt was never being critised beyond that which is generic for all such gear of that type.
Raising the plate would in my opinion, improve balance, reduce head banging and keep the tank closer to the body if the groove were removed or inverted and that is all I am going to say because as typical it becomes a fuss, I thought we were sharing ideas, oh well. N
cool_hardware52
Contributor
Nemrod:
The reason why most "direct mount" (no STA) setups fail and the tank wobbles can be traced to the bolts used to secure a wing to a plate. It's common to see single wings bolted onto plates. This means the "point" of contact between the plate and tank is the head of these two bolts. That inherently unstable. People get frustrated, and go to a STA without understanding why the tank rocks.
We eliminated the bolts, and replaced them with low profile elastomeric "locator tabs"
These tabs are compressible. In addition we provide a compressible "wobble stopper" in the center panel of our single wings. One side of this wobble stopper is shaped like the center channel in our plates, and the other side is a cradle for the tank. When you close the cambands you compress the wobble stopper, preloading the tank and centering it on the center channel of the plate.
Our plates are very low profile. No other plate I know of, that also accomodates doubles, has a similar profile. Compared to other combinations of Plates and STA's available today the tank will be 1" closer to the divers back with our plate.
Unless you have a very high tonnage press break and the appropriate flattening dies I'd be very surprised if you could flatten out a HH plate to anything approximating the profile of a DSS plate. At best you might be able to flatten the overall bend of the HH plate, but little would change in the center channel.
Nemrod:
I believe it is a matter of safety that the diver be able to reach the valves on all tanks, single or otherwise. Having a tank bouncing off the back of your knees precludes reaching the valve for most normally articulated divers. When a tank is located for best valve access it is high enough for corrigated hose not to be a problem. Head clearance, at least with modern regs is a bit over rated. When diving doubles ones head is usually hard up against the isolator, and the Isolator on a set of manifolded doubles is much closer to the diver head than the typical first stage. It's really a matter of getting used to it.
Nemrod:
We don't have a "high central ridge" we have the lowest center channel that still allows doubles to be mounted.
For more info look here http://www.deepseasupply.com/dssinstall.mov
and here http://www.deepseasupply.com/dssremoval.mov
and here http://deepseasupply.com/stabildemo.MOV
Tobin
*Floater*
Contributor
Just a pic to clarify the DSS rig's STA-less design:
On the left you have an Oxycheq lightweight STA for comparison. In the middle you have 2 rubber studs that are used the attach the DSS wing to the plate instead of regular STA bolts and nuts. The DSS stabilizer on the right is part of the wing (you clip it on) and it essentially acts as an STA, except you have to thread the cam straps through the plate. So basically it's the same end result as with a low profile STA. However, the top cam strap slot on the DSS plate is lower than on my STA:
For my girlfriend and I the above difference in top cam strap slot heights between the STA and plate means the difference between hitting our heads on the first stage and not (except that we don't use the top STA slot as a result).
So does the first-stage pinch the wing? I don't know. I don't have a tank at home to try right now, but even if it does it hasn't been something I noticed or felt to be a problem.
On the left you have an Oxycheq lightweight STA for comparison. In the middle you have 2 rubber studs that are used the attach the DSS wing to the plate instead of regular STA bolts and nuts. The DSS stabilizer on the right is part of the wing (you clip it on) and it essentially acts as an STA, except you have to thread the cam straps through the plate. So basically it's the same end result as with a low profile STA. However, the top cam strap slot on the DSS plate is lower than on my STA:
For my girlfriend and I the above difference in top cam strap slot heights between the STA and plate means the difference between hitting our heads on the first stage and not (except that we don't use the top STA slot as a result).
So does the first-stage pinch the wing? I don't know. I don't have a tank at home to try right now, but even if it does it hasn't been something I noticed or felt to be a problem.
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