Lost diver in Puget Sound

[scubak]

...Please read the full thread and you will find out the consequences to the dive instructor....
Now, again, I ask that this thread be closed...
Why?...It has been hashed through enough...really...we in the PNW know what happened, we know it was tragic, we know the conditions of that weekend in terms of vis, runoff etc...
Let this thread go...it isn't serving anyone anymore fact...and I know it has probably helped alot of newbies in the PNW...
Thanks,
K

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

...Please read the full thread and you will find out the consequences to the dive instructor....
Now, again, I ask that this thread be closed...
Why?...It has been hashed through enough...really...we in the PNW know what happened, we know it was tragic, we know the conditions of that weekend in terms of vis, runoff etc...
Let this thread go...it isn't serving anyone anymore fact...and I know it has probably helped alot of newbies in the PNW...
Thanks,
K

What has changed in this thread in the last couple of days is that one of Chad's dive buddy's and Dave's former students has chimmed in on the discussion. Perhaps, there will be some value to him even if the thread annoys you. Perhaps, it will help him to have a better understanding of what happened and become a better diver.

 

[raviepoo]

Oh come on! This wasn't heroism. It was foolishness. You don't go deeper than your air supply or training in order to save another diver in distress.

How many times have I heard a divemaster on a boat say, "Don't go down the wall. I will not risk my life to rescue anyone who goes too deep down the wall." One of the rules I was taught in my rescue class is never to jeopardize my own safety to attempt a rescue. One fatality is better than two fatalities.

Whether or not the instructor bears any responsibility for his stupidity and mendacity, the deceased diver is responsible for his own foolish choices. He should not have gone after the diver who was in trouble. He should have surfaced, and alerted the folks at the surface that there was a problem below.

Originally Posted by cerich
If the orginal account of Chads actions in returning to depth is correct and can be verified are there some other NAUI Instrs who would like to join me in nominating Chad for

ALBERT PIERCE MEDAL FOR HEROISM

Criteria

Any person is eligible who:

Successfully saved a life in an aquatics-related situation, and
Voluntarily exposed him/herself to grave personal risk of life, limb or continued health during the effort, and
Made a rescue effort clearly beyond the call of any explicit or implied duty. This is a key criterion that is intended to distinguish the actions needed for the award from those efforts normally expected and required of a NAUI Instructor in caring for students and divers in his or her vicinity, or for his or her personal students.
Nomination: by any NAUI member or by the rescued person involved

This is an absolutely wonderful idea. Whatever happened, he demonstrated some major courage to go back down and help that other diver.

 

[DandyDon]

Oh come on! This wasn't heroism. It was foolishness. You don't go deeper than your air supply or training in order to save another diver in distress.

How many times have I heard a divemaster on a boat say, "Don't go down the wall. I will not risk my life to rescue anyone who goes too deep down the wall." One of the rules I was taught in my rescue class is never to jeopardize my own safety to attempt a rescue. One fatality is better than two fatalities.

Whether or not the instructor bears any responsibility for his stupidity and mendacity, the deceased diver is responsible for his own foolish choices. He should not have gone after the diver who was in trouble. He should have surfaced, and alerted the folks at the surface that there was a problem below.

Boy, I disagree with that - but I think its' a difference in views, not facts.

Yes, we were taught in Rescue to not endanger ourselves in rescuing others. Not legally or morally expected to do it.

Is a person stupid or heroic for still doing it? Both perhaps, but they still commonly receive citations. I'd like to think I would, but that depends on the heat of the moment. Was the now dead diver a hero? Hell yeah - thank god we have some people like him in our world.

I finally got into Rescue class after an incedent where I risk myself to search for a missing buddy. Now that I'm trained, I'd still do that particular one.

 

[raviepoo]

I made a poor choice of words. I don't really think the deceased diver was stupid. (Foolish is the word I used, but I think that was a little harsh, in retrospect.)

I do think it was a poor choice to go back down after the diver on the bottom. Whether or not the deceased diver had done a bounce dive to 200 ft before - he was out of his depth and beyond his training level.

His tank held 80 lbs of air. He was almost certainly impaired at depth. If his air consumption was average his air would not last too long at that depth under the best circumstances. He had no idea what condition the other diver was in - whether he would be docile and accept assistance or whether he would fight and waste air in the process.

Under the best circumstances it would be a risk to attempt that rescue. The deceased diver did it with insufficient air and insufficient training. He sacrificed his life so another could live. It was very brave, but I don't think it was a good decision. If you ask his family, I doubt they would applaud him for trading his own life for another.

If an experienced tech diver diving doubles with lots of gas left in them attempted a rescue at that depth it would not be such a big deal. But the diver in question was simply gambling with his own life. It's a shame that he lost. It's also a shame that he seems not to have realized that he was, indeed, gambling.

Boy, I disagree with that - but I think its' a difference in views, not facts.

Yes, we were taught in Rescue to not endanger ourselves in rescuing others. Not legally or morally expected to do it.

Is a person stupid or heroic for still doing it? Both perhaps, but they still commonly receive citations. I'd like to think I would, but that depends on the heat of the moment. Was the now dead diver a hero? Hell yeah - thank god we have some people like him in our world.

I finally got into Rescue class after an incedent where I risk myself to search for a missing buddy. Now that I'm trained, I'd still do that particular one.

 

[raviepoo]

And another thing...

I would really like to see this incident written up in Alert Diver. I would like to see DAN's take on the incident, and know what they would advise under these circumstances.

There is a lesson in here for other divers. It can be interpreted several ways depending on your outlook. I would like to see DAN's interpretation.

 

[Web Monkey]

someone says something is safe doesn't make it so. The penalty for not having a very good idea of one's ability and the willingness to say: "I'm not doing that. It is outside my boundaries" is severe.
. . .

Before someone jumps on me: I'm not "blaming the victim" here. But from reports he did do the dive without being under duress.

New SCUBA divers don't have the frame of reference needed to make rational decisions about a lot of risks associated with deep dives.

Although they were all supposedly taught the various gas laws and may have even learned to calculate their SAC rate, AFAIK, nothing in an OW class mentions that it's possible to go incur a deco obligation that you don't have the gas to handle, and certainly nothing in an OW class makes a point of telling the students just how stupid they're going to be at depths way beyond their certification level (in fact, way beyond any recreational certification)

The classes also don't mention that it's entirely possible for an instructor or DM to tell or allow the student to do something that they shouldn't be doing.

The entire process is built around instructors getting students to feel comfortable doing something humans were never designed to do, so when an instructor takes new divers diving, chances are excellent they'll take his instructions over their own common sense.

Terry

 

[lamont]

And another thing...

I would really like to see this incident written up in Alert Diver. I would like to see DAN's take on the incident, and know what they would advise under these circumstances.

There is a lesson in here for other divers. It can be interpreted several ways depending on your outlook. I would like to see DAN's interpretation.

As soon as they got into the water with a dive plan that bad they were completely off the map. There's no safety procedure for how to deal with a narc'd dive buddy at 200+ fsw when you're both on single Al80s doing a bounce dive.

 

[DandyDon]

I made a poor choice of words. I don't really think the deceased diver was stupid. (Foolish is the word I used, but I think that was a little harsh, in retrospect.)

I do think it was a poor choice to go back down after the diver on the bottom. Whether or not the deceased diver had done a bounce dive to 200 ft before - he was out of his depth and beyond his training level.

Ok, stupid was my word, and used in the context I did - fits. "Is a person stupid or heroic for still doing it? Both perhaps, but they still commonly receive citations. I'd like to think I would, but that depends on the heat of the moment. Was the now dead diver a hero? Hell yeah - thank god we have some people like him in our world." I've said in other threads that if I screw up, I don't want others to risk their lives helping me, but I tend to be more stupid/heroic in my reaction to the problems of others. Again, it's a difference of view points.

His tank held 80 lbs of air. He was almost certainly impaired at depth. If his air consumption was average his air would not last too long at that depth under the best circumstances. He had no idea what condition the other diver was in - whether he would be docile and accept assistance or whether he would fight and waste air in the process.

Under the best circumstances it would be a risk to attempt that rescue. The deceased diver did it with insufficient air and insufficient training. He sacrificed his life so another could live. It was very brave, but I don't think it was a good decision. If you ask his family, I doubt they would applaud him for trading his own life for another.

I can't speak for this family and wouldn't ask. Again, it could be a mixed bag - sorry he did it/proud he did.

If an experienced tech diver diving doubles with lots of gas left in them attempted a rescue at that depth it would not be a big deal. But the diver in question was simply gambling with his own life. It's a shame that he lost. It's also a shame that he seems not to have realized that he was, indeed, gambling.

He probably did. Gambling is common to many aspects of life, we try to keep the odds in our favor.

I would really like to see this incident written up in Alert Diver. I would like to see DAN's take on the incident, and know what they would advise under these circumstances.

I'm sure it'll be in their annual report in a couple of years. Their advise should they offer any in a monthly publication or the annual report would certainly be at least inferred to not dive beyond training and equipment - but they won't condemn the stupid/heroic act that happened when things went to cacca.

 

[ArcticDiver]

New SCUBA divers don't have the frame of reference needed to make rational decisions about a lot of risks associated with deep dives.

If they are certified divers; only if they take scuba diving in isolation from all their other life experiences. Most of us have developed some sense of limitations. Some are more successful than others in applying that sense to new situations. My post was to encourage all of us to do more to nourish and develop that sense.

The classes also don't mention that it's entirely possible for an instructor or DM to tell or allow the student to do something that they shouldn't be doing.

It is a matter of degree. I've recently had an instructor put me in a situation that caused minor injury by doing what I was told to do. Of course I was blindfolded at the time so my trust was in the instructor. It was literally blind faith. But the situation wasn't one that could have resulted in a serious injury.

But, I don't need a class to tell me that an instructor could do me harm. I am disappointed when it happens. But any thinking person would have to acknowledge that being an instructor does not imbue them with an immunity from human faults.

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I have no further contributions so I'm leaving this thread. What happened is serious and sad. I interjected only to help assure we all had learned all the lessons we could from the posts about this unfortunate event. Anything further would merely be swapping ignorance and have no positive benefit.