Lost diver in Puget Sound

[MXGratefulDiver]

This instructor had no insurance at the time of the accident ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Peter Guy]

then it implies a duty of care outside the class setting

YOU BET IT DOES!!

We all have a duty of care to those we are with -- it just changes depending on the facts and circumstances. For example, when I'm riding my horse in the company of others, I have a duty of care NOT to do something that will cause another's horse to spook. When I'm diving I have a duty of care to be a "prudent and reasonable diver" under the circumstances as they then exist.

BECAUSE someone is an instructor, what is "prudent and reasonable" is going to be judged on a somewhat different level than what is "prudent and reasonable" for someone with just 8 dives or 150 dives (but without the extra training).

In this particular case, I hope that no one will say that it was "reasonable and prudent" for ANYONE involved to have done a 200' bounce dive, on air, at night, with a couple of very inexperienced divers, under the conditions as they then existed (cold and very poor vis). Yes "D" had a duty of care to his fellow divers and YES it is (or should be) a higher standard of care than anyone else in the group -- REGARDLESS of whether he was "teaching" at the time.

I'm pretty committed to the Libertarian political philosophy -- but that doesn't mean I'm a pure Social Darwinian. Should the others have resisted the siren song spewed forth by "D" and refused to dive? YES! But, "D" should not now be permitted to deny his culpability in the fiasco just because the other's "should have known better."

Those that encourage stupid behavior must be responsible for whatever level of encouragement they provide. NOTE -- The predictable stupid behaviour of others is NOT the "superceding, intervening" act that will break the causal chain.

 

[nlbford]

I cannot agree that there is a sole responsibility. The responsibility is shared. The question is how would a reasonable person assess the actions of the divers in relation to what they know or should have known, and also what influence, if any did one or all of the divers have on the others.

And that's my point. What I was sayiong about "sole responsibility" was that in this situation there wasn't any - and any that may exist is on each person for their own safety. Ultimately, as divers that is what we must face. We have to accept that in the end, we are responsible for our own safety and decisions. One has to accept an active role in their own education and knowledge of diving practices and can't completely lay it off on what an isntrusctor or fellow diver " TOLD them" - there is ample opportunity for even the newest of divers to get proper information and each must do so. One needs to have a varied base of knowledge and experience so they can reasonably evaluate any situation they are faced with - like an instructor or dive buddy telling them to do something that is foolish and goes against even the most basic of training guidleines.

 

[nlbford]

So what is the responsibility of the instructor?

Well as I have been pretty clear, there is a responsibility on hois part. And he certainly needs to be sanctioned on some level. I said that a couple of times. I just feel that it is important that people realize AL involved in this dive made decisions which go against what they have been told from minute one in class - and the "bad insyructor" line doesn't hold a lot of weight because everyone needs to do more than just listen to what an instructor may SAY and they need to read the books and learning materials provided. Not doing so and not following it is not the instructors fault. Even if he tells you, "don't read the book and don't pay attention to it if you do", it is ridiculous to follow along with that line of thinking and doing so doesn't release one from teh culpability of the consequences of being that wreckless.

Under what circumstances can an instructor be held to be criminally negligent, because you've got a slippery slope both directions and you are solely focused on the personal responsibility angle. The other side of the slippery slope is that there is no responsibility and everyone must be required to set their own limits. If a BOW instructor decides to take a class on a wreck dive on the Al-Ind-Eska-Sea (180-240 fsw), then they're not liable at all because there's printed material that the students should have been familiar with and they should have thumbed the dive, no matter what the instructor said. Where is the line, or is there none? I doubt that most people would agree that there is no line at all.

There's defintiely a line. I just don't agree that it is a bold one right at the feet of the instructor.

A lot of people seem to think this is evidence that Chad was an experienced diver that should have known better and I actually don't see the connection.

The connection is pretty clear. In that time there is plenty of opportunity and recourse for knowing that what was being planned was extremely dangerous and not availing ones self of those opportunities is no excuse for escaping responsibility for the consequences.

And still this avoids the issue of Chad going back down to assist a new diver who would have died if it weren't for his actions. Since Chad died and not the new diver this somehow removes the criminal aspects of Dave's actions?

One could actually argue that it technically might add Chad to the list of those that could be negligent. It is not unreasonable to argue that with Chad's experience he should have known better and should have been watching out for his fellow divers whether he was their instructor or not. It's not really my opinion so much, but I could certainly see that it could be argued.

 

[sea nmf]

This was an AOW night dive. According to one of the participants, they were not told until they arrived at the site that the planned depth was 200 feet. When one of the new divers objected, the instructor assured them that it would be alright. As it turned out, that diver and his dive buddy bailed on the dive at 55 feet, due to current and poor vis conditions. The other four continued to the bottom ... the depth on one diver's computer registered 211 feet.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

Just out of curiosity, did the students complete the requirements to get their card? Will they have to re-take it since the instructor had his credentials pulled? I know this is a small thing compared to what happened, but, as I said, I'm curious.

This is such an unnecessary tragedy. I'm so sorry for Chad's friends and family.

Accidents like this are why this forum is important. Perhaps new divers reading this will know to avoid deep dives like this without proper training and gases.

 

[Ben_ca]

This was an AOW night dive. According to one of the participants, they were not told until they arrived at the site that the planned depth was 200 feet. When one of the new divers objected, the instructor assured them that it would be alright. As it turned out, that diver and his dive buddy bailed on the dive at 55 feet, due to current and poor vis conditions. The other four continued to the bottom ... the depth on one diver's computer registered 211 feet.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Isn't the minimun depth for a deep dive 80 FSW? I'll have to check the web to see if the standards are posted... If there is a training requirement standard it would be nice to know to what standard (or metric) you are being trained to...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob,

Just out of curiosity, did the students complete the requirements to get their card? Will they have to re-take it since the instructor had his credentials pulled? I know this is a small thing compared to what happened, but, as I said, I'm curious.

No ... they wouldn't have in any event. Since the instructor had no insurance, technically he wasn't an instructor. Even if they'd completed the requirements, I don't see NAUI granting C-cards to an instructor who taught while uninsured. It is a small thing, and perhaps it's a small thing I can help do something about.

This is such an unnecessary tragedy. I'm so sorry for Chad's friends and family.

Me too ...

Accidents like this are why this forum is important. Perhaps new divers reading this will know to avoid deep dives like this without proper training and gases.

One can only hope ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Vicente]

Wow! This thread is still going. And with so little hard information to work with.

I'll wait for the report in Rodale's, or maybe DAN, before rendering such harsh judgements about what mistakes were made, in what order, and who was at fault.

Personally I did a few dumb things in my <200 dive range. If I'd have died I don't think my last thought would have been to assign blame to my dive buddies. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe some diver somewhere scrawled "TIM DID IT!" on his slate.......

 

[cerich]

Have to admit, Mike ... you make some good points.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sure did.

I'm a more simple person myself. This Instructor in question shows a complete lack of judgment and from what I understand encourages a "select" group of former current students to accompany him on stupid and very risky dives. We joke around using the "cool aid" symbol, lets not forget that that refers to another charismatic leader that had a "select" group"....

Chad was the second diver that died while on this type of dive whilst the instructor in question was there. The simple truth is had others Instructors at that point raised the alarm then, Chad would not have been this guys student and most likely not been in the water doing what he was doing the night he died. The first time this happened others talked about it but generally minded their own business. There is a reason that standards require us to report violations/unsafe acts among instructors. Somehow in society we have developed a aversion to being a "snitch", (I have an aversion to associating with people that have to worry about people "snitching" on them...)

So if this guy gets a pass on this from the legal authorities can we expect a third body? (if not in diving because NAUI is now well aware of this guy)

Lets contrast this to something I recently had happen. I was teaching two individuals that held SSI Divecon ratings (same as Divemaster) a technical program that consisted of Tech Nitrox, Deco Procedures and Helitrox. During the second to last dive they exhibited some very poor situational awareness and judgment. I stopped the diving for the rest of the day and explained where they went wrong. Then I explained that the course would now be a longer course where they would have to show me that they had improved both situational awareness and judgment before I could consider certifying them. The next weekend without me around they went diving on the Big "O", on air with doubles and using a O2 deco bottle they did a dive to ~170 with a runtime of somewhere around an hour with required deco. Before these guys even were in their car headed home I had two instructors who were on the boat diving for fun call me because they KNEW they were my students and that WASN"T what I would accept. I failed these two because of it. I also spoke with the instructor/owner of the store they assist with as Divecons and they were suspended from acting as Divecons for three months. They had also enrolled in a NAUI Prep/Instructor course that was to start in another month. I spoke with the Instructor Trainer for that course and it was agreed that they would not be able to attend at this time.

Leadership by definition must be held to a higher standard!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Isn't the minimun depth for a deep dive 80 FSW? I'll have to check the web to see if the standards are posted... If there is a training requirement standard it would be nice to know to what standard (or metric) you are being trained to...

Yes, Ben ... but NAUI standards also require you to stay within recreational limits.

More to the point, you have to use good judgment when choosing appropriate dive sites and dive conditions to conduct the class safely.

FWIW - I postponed dives for two AOW classes that same week because conditions were so awful. While I would have gone diving with my more experienced friends under those circumstances, no way would I have considered taking students out.

Safety isn't an afterthought ... it's the FIRST criteria an instructor needs to consider when scheduling class dives.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)