Lost diver in Puget Sound

[PinkPADIgal]

The accident 3 years ago did NOT involve this instructor. However, it was a similar event, same type of "bounce" dive, same location, with an instructor from a dive school in Seattle.

The instructor in this more recent accident was certified as a Naui Instructor in November 2003. He has been involved with other near misses in Puget Sound and British Columbia over the last 10 years. He has also taught classes without a renewed certification or insurance before.

The instructor in this case was an independent contractor, who also worked part time sales at the store. He was hired to teach in spring 2006. Because he was a contractor (he got a 1099, not a W-2) it was his responsibility to have his own insurance. Based on what I know of this individual, I would be surprised if he did have insurance coverage. The manager of this dive store has made it very clear to me that he was terminated, by the DS owner, for theif a few weeks before the accident.

Is the DS on the hook? It could be. Even though this instructor was "fired", all of the people he took with him on that dive were certified through that store. Considering this instructor owns no property or has any money, a good attorney is going to go where the money is. I am sure the owner of this store has already contacted his attorney, his insurance company and preparing that he could be named in a lawsuit.

 

[cerich]

The accident 3 years ago did NOT involve this instructor. However, it was a similar event, same type of "bounce" dive, same location, with an instructor from a dive school in Seattle.

The instructor in this more recent accident was certified as a Naui Instructor in November 2003. He has been involved with other near misses in Puget Sound and British Columbia over the last 10 years. He has also taught classes without a renewed certification or insurance before.

The instructor in this case was an independent contractor, who also worked part time sales at the store. He was hired to teach in spring 2006. Because he was a contractor (he got a 1099, not a W-2) it was his responsibility to have his own insurance. Based on what I know of this individual, I would be surprised if he did have insurance coverage. The manager of this dive store has made it very clear to me that he was terminated, by the DS owner, for theif a few weeks before the accident.

Thanks Amy for the insight. Sounds like this guy has made quite the "name" for himself in the NW. He was covered under the stores group insurance when he was teaching for them. The whole 1099 vs. W-2 issue for instructors is a fine line on the best of days, throw in working sales on the floor and the instructor should really be a W-2 but shops going the 1099 is the norm...

Is the DS on the hook? It could be. Even though this instructor was "fired", all of the people he took with him on that dive were certified through that store. Considering this instructor owns no property or has any money, a good attorney is going to go where the money is. I am sure the owner of this store has already contacted his attorney, his insurance company and preparing that he could be named in a lawsuit.

Thanks Amy for the insight. Sounds like this guy has made quite the "name" for himself in the NW. He was covered under the stores group insurance when he was teaching for them. The whole 1099 vs. W-2 issue for instructors is a fine line on the best of days, throw in working sales on the floor and the instructor should really be a W-2 but shops going the 1099 is the norm...

The only way I can see the store being on the hook is if a attorney makes a case that the divers on the dive recieved inadequete instruction on the courses they took thru the store. Maybe not a huge stretch considering they felt this dive plan as made by the same instructor (however no longer with the store) would be OK...

 

[Sasquatch]

Just a random thought but if he's a 1099 contractor he needs a Washington State business license. I know in some professions, and this should be one in my opinion, the 1099-er needs to be bonded and insured should his license involve a skill or profession that is potentially hazardous to the consumer. Like, electricians, framers, plumbers...dive instructors?

I know DM's and instructors are required to carry the insurance and I know that this instructor didn't but I'm wondering if perhaps the State may have a few questions for him regarding his State business license.

 

[anakin]

If the 'instructor' didnt have insurance and was already fired from the dive shop before the incident, then this means that he really isnt liable for anyone because in NAUI's eyes he is not an instructor, he is just another Diver. So in my eyes hes not liable, even if he was saying he was insured.

And as far as "instructor responsibility" and "higher standard of care" is concerned, I dont think any instructor has the right to go tell someone else that they can not do a bounce dive. If someone at the same dive site wants to do some crazy dive i dont agree with, I dont think its MY duty to make sure he doesnt do that dive. Only my CURRENT students will have to follow rules, guidelines and rec. limits. Anyone asking my advice is going to get the Rules, Guidelines and Rec. Limits set by my Cert. Agency.

Instructors are not the dive police! or anything even close to it!

I sure would not want anyone telling me what i can and cannot do or how deep i can and cannot go. Would you?

 

[sea nmf]

Instructors are not the dive police! or anything even close to it!

I sure would not want anyone telling me what i can and cannot do or how deep i can and cannot go. Would you?

This is a hypothetical because I do not know FIRST HAND what happened. IF it happened as outlined in this thread, then, YES, the instructor of the AOW class CAN tell you how deep you were going as part of the class. IF the diver initally in trouble was the instructor's student, then he was essentially that diver's dive police.

IF the instructor assisted with the DIVE PLAN that included the other divers, as has been said here, and he did not mention that this was an unsafe dive AND encouraged the dive.

BTW, Anakin, were you the instructor in this incident?

 

[Thalassamania]

Is the DS on the hook? It could be. Even though this instructor was "fired", all of the people he took with him on that dive were certified through that store. Considering this instructor owns no property or has any money, a good attorney is going to go where the money is. I am sure the owner of this store has already contacted his attorney, his insurance company and preparing that he could be named in a lawsuit.

My understanding (ain't internet rumor mill grade understandings great?) is that the instructor called all the students, told them that he was no longer working for the store and sold them on taking the course directly from him. If the students did, in fact, know that the LDS is likely off the hook, even though its the only deep pocket in sight.

 

[anakin]

This is a hypothetical because I do not know FIRST HAND what happened. IF it happened as outlined in this thread, then, YES, the instructor of the AOW class CAN tell you how deep you were going as part of the class. IF the diver initally in trouble was the instructor's student, then he was essentially that diver's dive police.

IF the instructor assisted with the DIVE PLAN that included the other divers, as has been said here, and he did not mention that this was an unsafe dive AND encouraged the dive.

BTW, Anakin, were you the instructor in this incident?

MUAHAHHAHA
IT WAS MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
:light:



.....seriously.

 

[BabyDuck]

If the 'instructor' didnt have insurance and was already fired from the dive shop before the incident, then this means that he really isnt liable for anyone because in NAUI's eyes he is not an instructor, he is just another Diver. So in my eyes hes not liable, even if he was saying he was insured.

And as far as "instructor responsibility" and "higher standard of care" is concerned, I dont think any instructor has the right to go tell someone else that they can not do a bounce dive. If someone at the same dive site wants to do some crazy dive i dont agree with, I dont think its MY duty to make sure he doesnt do that dive. Only my CURRENT students will have to follow rules, guidelines and rec. limits. Anyone asking my advice is going to get the Rules, Guidelines and Rec. Limits set by my Cert. Agency.

Instructors are not the dive police! or anything even close to it!

I sure would not want anyone telling me what i can and cannot do or how deep i can and cannot go. Would you?

i can't agree with most of this, anakin. if dave called these former students he knew from prior contact while working for the lds and set up 'private', for-money lessons outside the lds, then he's representing *himself* as an instructor and SINCE HE WAS TEACHING A CLASS, he's potentially liable whether or not he had insurance or naui had ever heard of him. if he was buddying with a person of comparable experience to himself for no money, they can do whatever stupid thing they want and then i'd agree he's no more liable than someone who isn't an instructor.

i do agree that an instructor isn't the dive police - nobody is. i don't agree that an instructor shouldn't tell others not to do a bounce to 200 on an al80, since i think *everyone* should tell others not to do that. :shakehead i agree that it's not my duty to prevent such things from random divers at a random dive site (i would hold no authority over anyone since i'm not a dm, instructor, or course director, though i hope i would express my doubts in the plan), but this instructor *planned* this dive from what has been said. these divers *were* his current students.

yep, i agree, i want to decide for myself what i will and won't do. i've knowingly done things against standards and contrary to my (excellent) instruction. i just don't think these students had the knowledge to make this decision.

 

[anakin]

i do agree that an instructor isn't the dive police - nobody is. i don't agree that an instructor shouldn't tell others not to do a bounce to 200 on an al80, since i think *everyone* should tell others not to do that. :shakehead i agree that it's not my duty to prevent such things from random divers at a random dive site (i would hold no authority over anyone since i'm not a dm, instructor, or course director, though i hope i would express my doubts in the plan),

this was all i was trying to get across.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If the 'instructor' didnt have insurance and was already fired from the dive shop before the incident, then this means that he really isnt liable for anyone because in NAUI's eyes he is not an instructor, he is just another Diver. So in my eyes hes not liable, even if he was saying he was insured.

And as far as "instructor responsibility" and "higher standard of care" is concerned, I dont think any instructor has the right to go tell someone else that they can not do a bounce dive. If someone at the same dive site wants to do some crazy dive i dont agree with, I dont think its MY duty to make sure he doesnt do that dive. Only my CURRENT students will have to follow rules, guidelines and rec. limits. Anyone asking my advice is going to get the Rules, Guidelines and Rec. Limits set by my Cert. Agency.

Instructors are not the dive police! or anything even close to it!

I sure would not want anyone telling me what i can and cannot do or how deep i can and cannot go. Would you?

I'm having a hard time understanding how an instructor can have written this ... doesn't your agency explain the concept of "duty of care" to its instructors?

This dive wasn't just a bunch of buddies out diving ... it was a class. The students would have had no way of knowing that the instructor was uninsured, and therefore ineligible to teach. They paid money for an AOW class, and as such there was a student/instructor relationship established for this dive.

When we are instructing a class, we ARE ... in fact ... the scuba police. I won't tolerate students doing anything in my class unless I specifically TELL THEM IT'S OK to do it. Because, as long as they are in my class, I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR SAFETY.

I may be misunderstanding what you typed ... but do you really believe that, during a class, you don't have the right to tell your students how deep they can or cannot go?

Or, more likely, you're misunderstanding what's already been established ... that these weren't Dave Graddon's dive buddies ... and they certainly weren't just some random divers who happened to be diving at the same dive site ... they were his students. Dave Graddon PLANNED this dive. OF COURSE he could have ... and should have ... done something to prevent it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)