Lost Buddy Marker

[Kevin Carlisle]

Bats in the belfrey? sorry couldn't resist

Thats a good one

 

[Cave Diver]

If you leave the light on as a beacon what is to say your buddy is exiting already and not going deeper looking for you and now you have just reduced the burn time of that light. LED or not. And what if you left that light there in a silt out turned on or not would it really help that other diver?

I believe the line arrow left behind, Team awareness and alertness and a smart head on your shoulders are all that is required to permit YOU to safely exit the cave in tact. Your buddy close behind or ahead of you.

I'm glad you weighed in. I agree with most of what you have said and respect your opinions. But statistically team alertness, awareness and smart heads have not always prevailed. If so, we'd have no need for accident analysis.

Having said that, I think the odds that my buddy would run across a lit backup light left behind (say that 3 times fast!) would be greater than the odds of him seeing an arrow I left behind by itself. Especially since a stressed diver making a hasty exit could very likely have tunnel vision (no pun intended) and miss the marker while focusing on the exit. As you stated, both divers are in effect "lost" until they reunite. I would think that seeing my buddy's light on the line would have a re-assuring effect knowing that he had also found the line and make for a much less stressful exit on my part.

The accident several years back at Little River around Thanksgiving is one that especially sticks with me. They were also from Texas and I had met both divers in the parking lot as we were finishing a dive and they were gearing up. I recall later reading one of the comments from the survivor as something along the lines that once he cleared the siltout and headed out, he kept thinking (hoping?) that his buddy was ahead of him, up until the point when he hit the cavern zone. I'm sure he'll play "what if?" for the rest of his life.

In regards to the reduced burn time by leaving the light on, that doesn't concern me in the least. I put fresh batteries from different batches in my lights whenever I go cave diving. Using those same lights for multiple night dives in the course of a week has taught me that the burn time far exceeds my gas reserves, even on CCR. In a worst case scenario when leaving a light behind, I end up buying new batteries, or a new light, if I fail to recover it. My buddy is worth the $150.

Finally, as I stated previously, my decision to leave a light would depend on my current situation at the time. If I still have a working primary, another working backup, have found the main line and feel that I can exit in reasonably short order I see no reason not to. Why carry emergency equipment if I don't use it in an emergency?

If you choose not to leave behind an essential piece of equipment I can respect that decision.

 

[limeyx]

My idea & what I teach is to place the spool/reel clip, or double ender on the line, after I relocate the lost line to indicate the direction you are travelling, to what you THINK is the exit direction. If you confirm it is the wrong direction (by finding an arrow pointing in the opposite direction, or other means) turn around then reposition the clip/double ender, when you reach it again(double ender for a spool) change it to the direction you NOW think is the exit, the direction you are travelling. If I am looking for you & come across this configuration I know which way you travelled when you were last at the spool/reel.

This gives no conflicting exit direction to another diver & lets your buddy know which way you are currently travelling.

It is paramount for us to never place a directional arrow on a line that does not definitely point toward the nearest exit.

This is not what I was taught, and I think you can get in trouble this was because you now have 3 lines all T'd together (the mainline is T'd to your search line) and you have no way to know what line is your search line if you keep moving the boltsnap.

What I was taught is:

tie in your spool to the line you find, and point the boltsnap back along my search line (this keeps the boltsnap protocol consistent with every other time I tie into something) this then marks my search line.

Then place a cookie on the side of my spool that I think is the exit (the direction I intend to swim) if I go this way and later decide its the wrong way, come back and move the cookie to the other side of the spool

 

[limeyx]

The clip has to be clipped somewhere & it should be the travel direction indicator. Why waste time getting out an arrow?
I hope this clears my ramblings up!!

Becuase you?( I) dont use the clip like that at any other time. It always points back the way I came, which in this case is back along my search line.

 

[limeyx]

Yet, I am getting this growing uneasy feeling that people are putting first these HYPOTHETICAL teams, who are very unlikely to arrive exactly THEN, and get into trouble while there is a temporary stray arrow placed - instead of worrying about the team that is actually in acute emergency, trying to solve possibly a life threatening problem.

As others have pointed out, you may actually be dropping markers that will confuse exactly the person you are attempting to save or locate if you put arrows that "break" the cave navigation. It's not just some hypothetical team that might come along later.

 

[limeyx]

Your arrow MUST be in the direction of the EXIT. This arrow as Jim has suggested can be left behind to communicate to the buddy that you have searched and left the cave.

Which exit ? The way the team came in, or the way the last bunch of arrows have been pointing (which may be the opposite way) ?

 

[sean_nc]

Interesting topic. First let me say I have no cave training and it will be a while before I get around to it, I'm just trying to learn a few things as I go.

From reading all these pages here's what makes sense to me..

When you realize your buddy is lost,
1. Put a turned on backup light on the line.
2. Tie off and do a search.
3. When you've used your allowable gas and get back to where you started, leave an arrow pointing out.

If he gets back first, he stays put at the light or pulls on your search line.
If he gets back later and there's a light and an arrow he knows you left that way.

If you find an arrow on a line and it's tied next to a random backup light it would be a clue not to trust it, even though it should be pointing the right way.

..just my $.02

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I'm glad you weighed in. I agree with most of what you have said and respect your opinions. But statistically team alertness, awareness and smart heads have not always prevailed. If so, we'd have no need for accident analysis.

Having said that, I think the odds that my buddy would run across a lit backup light left behind (say that 3 times fast!) would be greater than the odds of him seeing an arrow I left behind by itself. Especially since a stressed diver making a hasty exit could very likely have tunnel vision (no pun intended) and miss the marker while focusing on the exit. As you stated, both divers are in effect "lost" until they reunite. I would think that seeing my buddy's light on the line would have a re-assuring effect knowing that he had also found the line and make for a much less stressful exit on my part.

The accident several years back at Little River around Thanksgiving is one that especially sticks with me. They were also from Texas and I had met both divers in the parking lot as we were finishing a dive and they were gearing up. I recall later reading one of the comments from the survivor as something along the lines that once he cleared the siltout and headed out, he kept thinking (hoping?) that his buddy was ahead of him, up until the point when he hit the cavern zone. I'm sure he'll play "what if?" for the rest of his life.

In regards to the reduced burn time by leaving the light on, that doesn't concern me in the least. I put fresh batteries from different batches in my lights whenever I go cave diving. Using those same lights for multiple night dives in the course of a week has taught me that the burn time far exceeds my gas reserves, even on CCR. In a worst case scenario when leaving a light behind, I end up buying new batteries, or a new light, if I fail to recover it. My buddy is worth the $150.

Finally, as I stated previously, my decision to leave a light would depend on my current situation at the time. If I still have a working primary, another working backup, have found the main line and feel that I can exit in reasonably short order I see no reason not to. Why carry emergency equipment if I don't use it in an emergency?

If you choose not to leave behind an essential piece of equipment I can respect that decision.

This was a good post CD.. I dont know any cave divers that dont carry enough lights to have multiple failures and still have a light. Leaving behind 1 should not be an issue.

 

[rjack321]

As others have pointed out, you may actually be dropping markers that will confuse exactly the person you are attempting to save or locate if you put arrows that "break" the cave navigation. It's not just some hypothetical team that might come along later.

Exactly. You're best plan is to place an arrow consistent with the navigation of the cave and then place a cookie or other non-direction marker like a clothespin reinforcing your exit.

If the lost buddy is down to their last 100psi they will hopefully make an effort to exit at the closest available exit (air source). Otherwise they will hopefully realize that "their exit" is "up arrow" and exit where you laid your continuous line to the surface.

piikki, I think the quandry you are facing is that your course didn't address using non-directional markers when you are in a section of cave with the arrows pointing towards other exits.

 

[GDI]

I was asked about placing a arrow to the EXIT and my opinion on that.

The EXIT is always the way you have proven to direct you the surface out of the cave system and that line arrows should always point to the exit

I will purposely leave my statement at that