Lost Buddy Marker

[Cave Diver]

Since we are on the subject of training, I believe that Jim Wyatt also offers a refresher course for people that haven't been in caves for a while. I'd like to invite him to add a few words on behalf of that class if he would.

 

[piikki]

It is paramount for us to never place a directional arrow on a line that does not definitely point toward the nearest exit.

So, I would like to ask for advice for a simple scenario. It might be too simple to be realistic but as an Intro diver with LP85s I have not made it too far anywhere yet, so bare with this. I have made it lick short of 1000ft on the Pothole side of P1. This means I have been past the point where the arrows change direction, and instead of P1 the closer exit is Olsen Sink.

Say, I would be 900ft from P1 leading a dive and all of a sudden just that I am about to turn the dive, no buddy nowhere. Somehow I have been totally clueless of what’s been going on and when I look behind me, there’s a silt storm and whatnot but no buddy.

Now you are telling me I am committing a capital crime if I reach for my arrow and drop one down and point it towards P1? It's about midpoint but the closer exit is Olsen - but it’s not my exit. I have never been to Olsen Sink. I have no line out from there, I have no idea whether the gold line is as close to OW as it is in P1 or as far as it is in OG.

You are telling me I need to drop an arrow to point to the direction I am not planning to go – just in case - so that I won’t risk somebody else’s life who most likely is not even operating in stress mode like my team? Drop it the undesirable way and risk my buddy finding it and going with it? Also, what about Pothole? What should I do (with the marker, I know I would absolutely exit towards P1)?

 

[JahJahwarrior]

piikki-- sounds like a great application of a directional cookie. It's a tough call, because Jim is right, a directional marker pointing the wrong way could kill someone. It is a good idea to discuss this before a dive with your buddy, especially on dives when arrows will flop, to come up with a plan of action.

 

[rjack321]

So, I would like to ask for advice for a simple scenario. It might be too simple to be realistic but as an Intro diver with LP85s I have not made it too far anywhere yet, so bare with this. I have made it lick short of 1000ft on the Pothole side of P1. This means I have been past the point where the arrows change direction, and instead of P1 the closer exit is Olsen Sink.

Say, I would be 900ft from P1 leading a dive and all of a sudden just that I am about to turn the dive, no buddy nowhere. Somehow I have been totally clueless of what’s been going on and when I look behind me, there’s a silt storm and whatnot but no buddy.

Now you are telling me I am committing a capital crime if I reach for my arrow and drop one down and point it towards P1? It's about midpoint but the closer exit is Olsen - but it’s not my exit. I have never been to Olsen Sink. I have no line out from there, I have no idea whether the gold line is as close to OW as it is in P1 or as far as it is in OG.

You are telling me I need to drop an arrow to point to the direction I am not planning to go – just in case - so that I won’t risk somebody else’s life who most likely is not even operating in stress mode like my team? Drop it the undesirable way and risk my buddy finding it and going with it? Also, what about Pothole? What should I do (with the marker, I know I would absolutely exit towards P1)?

You leave and arrow pointing towards P1 even though Olsen is closer. Imagine your buddy finds this arrow, ahah! they now "know" exit. So they swim towards P1 in their personal ****storm. Wait now they find a permanent arrow pointing towards Olsen still, as expected in zero vis their preceptual narrowing is pretty high. "crud how did I get turned around" they head back towards Olsen. They run into your misplaced arrow again, "damn where am I, which way is out???".

The arrow you placed "for you" is doing your buddy no good at all as they bounce around between it and the other Olsen arrows confused and burning gas.

The best thing to do is not mess with the general navigation of the cave and don't place any arrows contradicting it. Cause your buddy probably has enough gas to exit at either P1 OR Olsen - even if they have never been there if they get to the end of the line and see a glow ahead they are hopefully going to use a safety spool to exit there.

 

[piikki]

The arrow you placed "for you" is doing your buddy no good at all as they bounce around between it and the other Olsen arrows confused and burning gas.
.

Ok, I will allow one bounce back and forth but even if stressed I try to avoid diving with dummer buddies than that!!! If two consequent arrows don't match, confirm with third and then you are on your own, make your pick. If my personal arrow is there (that my buddy should recognize, blind too), it will of course be the BOSS-arrow, buddy better believe it

Naturally we would have talked about the site before the dive, and most likely would know whether we would about hit midpoint of two exits at some point. I would hope and pray I or my buddy would not so lose their cool as become ping-pong balls but this is why it's good to discuss these things. If ending up in the hesus-moment in max penetration (albeit in such a far-fetched 1/6ths situations as this), I would not want to be thinking about unknown exit with a possible long poking around with reel - when I know I can make it out easily from known exit (and direct my buddy there with my known, personalized arrow).

I might of course want to put that arrow down for myself while I have a momentary freak out, then I could refer back to it after I collect myself

 

[TSandM]

I was taught to leave an arrow on the line, and a backup light, and a note. But I have to confess that, if we discussed what to do when you lost your buddy in a portion of the cave where the navigational markers had changed and no longer pointed to YOUR exit, I don't recall the discussion. But as basic principles, we are taught never to change the general navigation of a cave, and that a cookie marks YOUR exit. So I think that, in consonance with the basics, if I were in a section of cave where my exit was against the general navigation, I'd place an arrow consistent with the general navigation, "negate" it with a cookie on MY exit side, and leave my light and note there.

I don't worry about leaving a backup light on the line. We plan for one major failure. Losing my buddy is a major failure. Losing my primary would be a second major failure. Losing the remaining backup light would be a third major failure, and if that happens, I am having a very bad day. Not to mention that I would almost always have a third buddy with three lights . . . We carry three because we might need spares in an emergency. Like carrying extra gas, that emergency can take various forms, and needed to leave one on the line for my buddy is one of those shapes.

 

[ucfdiver]

Seems all this would be easier if we tie in our spools, and drop a cookie on the exit side as if it were a T. I hate the thought of dropping a line marker in a stressful situation, especially in popular caves. There's already arrows installed on the perm lines, and you don't have to swim further than 100ft in most places to see the next one if you get turned around.

You learn to ignore the arrows and trust your cookies once you start doing jumps. For instance, there's arrows in Ginnie that point to the fastest exit, but you can't get there unless you're sidemount. I always assume arrows are perm and point me to an often unverified circuit, traverse, etc...where as cookies are my teams cookies.

 

[Meng_Tze]

.....
Now you are telling me I am committing a capital crime if I reach for my arrow and drop one down and point it towards P1? It's about midpoint but the closer exit is Olsen - but it’s not my exit. I have never been to Olsen Sink. I have no line out from there, I have no idea whether the gold line is as close to OW as it is in P1 or as far as it is in OG.

.....

Outside of the confusion a contradicting arrow may cause............. you do not know with absolute certainty that Olsen is open. Olsen is NOT a verified exit to you. In effect you are doing a traverse, but one that was unplanned and thus your gas plan may not be able to incorporate a try to exit Olson...........

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

The way I was tought is the arrow would not be left if I travel down the line and find a real arrow and turn around when I get to my arrow it would be changed to the correct direction indicating 1) i'm no longer lost 2) I'm on my way out.

Mr. Wyatt I'm not tracking on how your talking about clipping off using the dog clip for direction. Your talking wrap your spool/reel on the line then clip off to that line instead of back on your own correct?

Once you locate the lost line and tie into it use the clip to indicate direction of travel instead of clipping back to your own line.

The clip has to be clipped somewhere & it should be the travel direction indicator. Why waste time getting out an arrow?
I hope this clears my ramblings up!!

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Now you are telling me I am committing a capital crime if I reach for my arrow and drop one down and point it towards P1? It's about midpoint but the closer exit is Olsen - but it’s not my exit. I have never been to Olsen Sink. I have no line out from there, I have no idea whether the gold line is as close to OW as it is in P1 or as far as it is in OG.

You are telling me I need to drop an arrow to point to the direction I am not planning to go – just in case - so that I won’t risk somebody else’s life who most likely is not even operating in stress mode like my team? Drop it the undesirable way and risk my buddy finding it and going with it? Also, what about Pothole? What should I do (with the marker, I know I would absolutely exit towards P1)?

Excellent question.

No where in my discussion did I suggest an arrow was to be used, nor did I intend to insinuate it was a captital crime if you did so. :headscratch:

You have not verified Olsen as an exit so you cannot go that way. You will have tied your reel on the line and need to indicate your direction of travel. If you use the clip from your reel you will have then properly identified your exit direction/direction of travel and have NOT left contradicting markers on the line.


Using reel clips in this manner, to indicate direction of travel makes the question a moot issue.

I wrote an article that was published in one of the recent Underwater Speleology issues regarding this issue. I can send it to anyone who would like to read it.


I do offer refresher classes occasionally. I charge no fee for these but always ask for a $50 donation to North Florida Springs Alliance

This image may help understanding what I mean.