Lost Buddy Marker

[PfcAJ]

In your explanation You could carry a second safety reel ( aka spool) Lesson learned from fatality at Eagles Nest - accident analysis study

Let's not forget about the real issue on that dive. Diving 12/43 at 290ft (thats an END of 150ft, btw).

Here is my humble opinion. I would never leave a piece of my equipment that may be needed for me to exit the cave safely. Be it a reel or light. If some of you guy feel you need to leave a beacon then buy on of those chemical sticks and carry it with you on your dive. But give up a light. Not me. Your first responsibility is to yourself and your family. As should be your buddies. Follow your 5 Ps (proper planning prevents poor performance)
and you will be fine. As stated before Diving is a solo sport done in groups. Far to often 2 divers die instead of one because they fail to use common sense. I've dove with people that had all three lights fail. I myself have had 2 fail.(that's why I carry 3 backup lights) So if I left one on the line I got nothing left.

Those chemlights are so unreliable they're next to worthless. If they are activated, there is no way to know. That doesn't seem like something I'd rely on... And if you don't have the common sense to recognize when you no longer have at least twice the gas needed to exit the cave, then you shouldn't be cave diving.

Guess you never had a light floor or a switch brake or a blulb die or a twist lid be to far down so when you got to depth it turn on. Guess I need to dive in that perfect world. lets dive in the real world where thing go wrong and you plan for worst case. And I have yet been able to dive in tandem unless I'm sharing air.

Nope, never had a switch flood...because I don't dive lights with switches. Nope, never had a bulb break either. Nope, haven't had a light turn on since cavern class and I learned how to check that on the surface.

Seriously, checking your equipment is something to be done PRE-DIVE...not when you actually need it. A triple light failure for one person means one thing and one thing only...lack of proper equipment maintenance. I don't know if you can't identify it, don't know how, or don't care, but a triple light failure ON A DIVE is just ridiculous.

So now, for the record, the list of events that will cause you to exit on the line after a buddy separation (failure one) ,not finding your buddy (failure two), a primary light failure (failure 3), and a backup light failure (failure 4).

Well we might as well not even go cave diving if we're going to plan on 4 critical failures...

 

[Cave Diver]

In your explanation You could carry a second safety reel ( aka spool) Lesson learned from fatality at Eagles Nest - accident analysis study

I recall reading about several EN fatalities, but can't recall specific details.

Based on your answer Have you considered this approach instead?. (And in my question there are three scenarios not just one -a = dark, b=siltout, and c= minimal light conditions but lets just deal with it the way you answered it as I perceived it)

Yes, I realized you posed 3 scenarios, but I just kind of went with what I perceived as worst case, no buddy, no light, no line. Any one of the three effectively gives you zero viz to see, so in my way of thinking I'd handle them basically the same.

You find the line using your safety reel and you secure it to the found line. Now you anchor the two lines together, Then using your same reel, from the anchor point you begin searching for the lost buddy. ...

Yes, I gave this scenario some thought. I chose not to do this because, based on the parameters given with no viz and no way to check gauges, at this point I can't make a safe assessment of how much time/gas was used in the C/F and how much I have left available to search. The prudent thing seemed to start making my exit rather than continue to contribute to the problem.

Conservation of effort and time. when you decide to exit especially if not having found your buddy then you rewind you reel to the anchor point a known reference and set to exit the system,

Understood. That would probably be the normal course of action, except for my feelings as noted above about the parameters (my impression) I was working under.

If you feel the need to cut line/reel free then I could understand that.

Generally no. I was taught that my safety spool lives in my dry suit pocket and is not part of any dive planning. Then you take one more spool/jump/gap reel than your team thinks you will need on a given dive, but I may not be the one carrying it, depending on who the reel man was entering the cave. (Dividing resources across the team). Again, given the parameters of a worst case scenario, I made the assumption I don't have the extra reel and I wasnt leaving mine behind.

I always carry a redundant safety spool - due to the Eagles Nest fatality so no need to cut. i can leave the reel and come back later. Scissors and lines don't mix well, last choice option.

Agreed, that cutting a line is a last choice option. I know the procedure I'd use to make sure that the gold line was completely clear, but although simple, it was a bit lengthy to describe in detail. If you have a link to the EN fatality, please post so I can review the details.

 

[Cave Diver]

BTW, I'd like to take a moment to thank all the participants thus far for some well thought out debates and responses and for keeping the discussion mostly on track and respectful to each other.

I think that some of the more seasoned divers have been given some things to think about and some of the newer divers may have learned just how quickly things can get out of hand and that there is still a lot left to learn.

Carry on!

 

[Meng_Tze]

I am on the line. I have covered and uncovered my light. I have the silt cloud in the distance off the line but nothing else to go on. I place an arrow on the line pointing towards Olsen, even though that is not "my" exit. Its still the "closest" tho. I estimate 2x the gas needed to exit, which is approximately 600 psi for me, 1200psi for 2 divers. I have 2400, I can search for up to 400 psi "into" the cave.

I place a cookie on the P1 side of the arrow marking my exit path. I tie off my safety spool in-between the cookie and the arrow and search off the line for 400psi

I don't find my buddy in the silt cloud.

I pull my safety spool as I return back to the mainline. I leave both the arrow and the cookie. I turn on and deploy a backup light. I clip that to the mainline on the exit sdie of the arrow. If there's enough slack I loop the mainline around the bulb end to get the light to point towards the cookie+arrow.

I exit and either wait in the cavern zone or try to get help on the steps.

You re-calculated your exit gas for Olson or for the entrance (exit you came from)?

 

[GDI]

Rick, could you move that thread to the cave diving section (I think you're a mod?)?

I'm not allowed to post in that forum per site rules in the sticky-
Not to mention, I think it would be just as one sided of a debate if you had posted it in the DIR section...you and I both know that if any of us anti solo people posted, we'd get ganged up on, and it's a hidden forum, so we have no like minded divers to come to our rescue.

How about this: I will leave it in the solo section and we can see it here as it relates to cave diving, but lets not hijack the thread to much: (BTW I'm not anti solo I can't be as I teach it as a discipline)

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ca...ty-conducted-social-activity.html#post4742131

 

[Meng_Tze]

....

We do not always dive in systems that are so easily passable and open at the exits and we do not all dive back mount

Think about a system to which you have not "PROVEN" the exits.

Your comments are spot on. It seems people blindly trust arrows pointing to non-verified exits. It has been said before in this thread, but was skimmed over I think.

Doing unplanned traverses is highly dangerous.

 

[GDI]

I recall reading about several EN fatalities, but can't recall specific details. .....

PM and Link sent

International Underwater Cave Rescue and Recovery

 

[GDI]

Your comments are spot on. It seems people blindly trust arrows pointing to non-verified exits. It has been said before in this thread, but was skimmed over I think.

Doing unplanned traverses is highly dangerous.

I remember a time when Peacock to Olsen had two times within the passage overall when the arrows changed direction within the passage. Peacock to Pothole and Pothole to Olsen. You had to connect the pothole gap.

 

[ucfdiver]

Your comments are spot on. It seems people blindly trust arrows pointing to non-verified exits. It has been said before in this thread, but was skimmed over I think.

Doing unplanned traverses is highly dangerous.

I recently found an area of Ginnie even, where the arrows point out to the fastest exit....if you're side mount, if you're backmount you can't even pass through!

 

[Cave Diver]

PM and Link sent

International Underwater Cave Rescue and Recovery

Thanks. I did recall that one, just not in that detail.

My understanding of that report is that both divers had two spools/reels on them. One failed to deploy them, the other deployed one and became tangled.

In light of that, are you at liberty to discuss what part of this analysis led to the recommendation of carrying two safety spools?

I remember a time when Peacock to Olsen had two times within the passage overall when the arrows changed direction within the passage. Peacock to Pothole and Pothole to Olsen. You had to connect the pothole gap.

Wasn't that a snap 'n gap at one point too?