longer primary hose after getting an air2 - what length and type?

[BlueTrin]

@BlueTrin
I skimmed through that link. Found nothing on Air2.
I did find this link for the 5th gen manual, that explicitly states on page 5 that it is NOT for cold water use.
https://www.scubapro.com/sites/scubapro_site/files/10-14272-scubapro_air2-eng.pdf

Thanks for the correction

 

[saxman242]

Right, and I am comfortable with that. I am an Aqualung dealer, and have no qualms about swapping the necessary parts to convert a Core 1st stage to a Core Supreme 1st stage, even thought they have not bundled them as a "conversion kit." But it will still be marked EN250A >10°C. If searching for the right phrasing, maybe that is better described as an authorized modification.

More important is not to start moving around 1st/2nd pairing that were not tested together. While if each was part of a CW configuration in the first place that will probably be okay, it is not definitive unless that new pairing was also tested at some point. And having a CW 1st stage does NOT automatically mean that ANY 2nd stage used will "inherit" that property from the 1st. It is both components and systems that provide freeze resistance.

I can only speak to my knowledge of the Atomic product line (especially since that's the parts I happen to have in front of me). Atomic offers the Z2/Z3 and B2 first stage with and without a coldwater kit. It's a factory option to have it installed, not a different product (Core vs Core Supreme). The coldwater kit can be installed during rebuild (or at any other time I suppose) and the >10C markings are on the close out ring that is replaced as part of the coldwater kit, not marked permanently on the regulator.

At this point, we're just debating semantics, but it's not quite the same thing as swapping parts from another product line as the reg with the coldwater kit is exactly what Atomic tests. Functionally, I doubt it's any different than swapping out the components in the Core regulator.

I certainly agree that, at bare minimum, you'd want to ensure that all components have been tested to that standard. Pairing an EN250a rated first stage with a non rated 2nd stage would not pass on the performance to the 2nd stage.

I struggle a bit with buying in that the EN250a rating is as a system, however, as other than bundled kits from a distributor, EN250a rated regulators are generally sold as a matched first and second, but not with a matched octopus. If it was necessary to have the octopus be included to maintain the EN250a rating, I would think it'd have to be sold as a complete package.

I'd love to read the standard itself, more out of curiosity as an engineer than anything, but I'm not about to fork over the $250 it costs to buy access to it. As such, everything I'm saying is only my inference from reading secondary sources, so I could be totally wrong.

Interestingly, Apeks has a discussion on their website where they talk about having their octopuses rated separately for use to EN250a standards. Also, to an early mentioned question about what EN250 rates the use of an octopus to, they reference a minimum operating depth of 100 feet. Their octopus ratings are with the intent of exceeding that.




Now I'm extremely curious to look at the actual EN250 and EN250:2014 standards side by side.

 

[saxman242]

D


If you have the Scubapro air 2 the temperature spec is literally in the PDF in the very first link if you google ‘Scubapro air 2 cold water’

https://www.scubapro.com/sites/scubapro_site/files/scubapro_regulators-eng_rev-h.pdf

I couldn’t find information on the SS1 in regards to cold water rating whether it is due to my googling skills or lack of official info

Just as a secondary data point to confirm what you're saying (and as a comparison against the Atomic SS1), the Scubapro air 2 is marked EN250 >10C

 

[JackD342]

I can only speak to my knowledge of the Atomic product line (especially since that's the parts I happen to have in front of me). Atomic offers the Z2/Z3 and B2 first stage with and without a coldwater kit. It's a factory option to have it installed, not a different product (Core vs Core Supreme). The coldwater kit can be installed during rebuild (or at any other time I suppose) and the >10C markings are on the close out ring that is replaced as part of the coldwater kit, not marked permanently on the regulator.

At this point, we're just debating semantics, but it's not quite the same thing as swapping parts from another product line as the reg with the coldwater kit is exactly what Atomic tests. Functionally, I doubt it's any different than swapping out the components in the Core regulator.

I certainly agree that, at bare minimum, you'd want to ensure that all components have been tested to that standard. Pairing an EN250a rated first stage with a non rated 2nd stage would not pass on the performance to the 2nd stage.

I struggle a bit with buying in that the EN250a rating is as a system, however, as other than bundled kits from a distributor, EN250a rated regulators are generally sold as a matched first and second, but not with a matched octopus. If it was necessary to have the octopus be included to maintain the EN250a rating, I would think it'd have to be sold as a complete package.

I'd love to read the standard itself, more out of curiosity as an engineer than anything, but I'm not about to fork over the $250 it costs to buy access to it. As such, everything I'm saying is only my inference from reading secondary sources, so I could be totally wrong.

Interestingly, Apeks has a discussion on their website where they talk about having their octopuses rated separately for use to EN250a standards. Also, to an early mentioned question about what EN250 rates the use of an octopus to, they reference a minimum operating depth of 100 feet. Their octopus ratings are with the intent of exceeding that.




Now I'm extremely curious to look at the actual EN250 and EN250:2014 standards side by side.

Yep, we are pretty much on the same page. I also had a few choice words when I determined I would have to purchase a copy of the EN250:2014 standards to read them. Same as paying to read the CGA standards here in the US that are incorporated into law by reference. (I have to PAY to read the LAW?!?)

Yes, I wish this was all simpler than it currently is, but that is just wishful thinking. Aside from rare periodic random US Navy tests for very specific extreme conditions on a relatively small group of items, the CE standards are the closet we have to an "industry standard."

So my basic point remains: Do NOT assume a component or a system is suitable for CW without affirmative documentation. And to also realize that freeze proof is an ideal concept - we are really dealing with freeze resistant, to a greater or lesser extent depending on brand/model/design.

 

[JackD342]

I can only speak to my knowledge of the Atomic product line (especially since that's the parts I happen to have in front of me). Atomic offers the Z2/Z3 and B2 first stage with and without a coldwater kit. It's a factory option to have it installed, not a different product (Core vs Core Supreme). The coldwater kit can be installed during rebuild (or at any other time I suppose) and the >10C markings are on the close out ring that is replaced as part of the coldwater kit, not marked permanently on the regulator.

At this point, we're just debating semantics, but it's not quite the same thing as swapping parts from another product line as the reg with the coldwater kit is exactly what Atomic tests. Functionally, I doubt it's any different than swapping out the components in the Core regulator.

I certainly agree that, at bare minimum, you'd want to ensure that all components have been tested to that standard. Pairing an EN250a rated first stage with a non rated 2nd stage would not pass on the performance to the 2nd stage.

I struggle a bit with buying in that the EN250a rating is as a system, however, as other than bundled kits from a distributor, EN250a rated regulators are generally sold as a matched first and second, but not with a matched octopus. If it was necessary to have the octopus be included to maintain the EN250a rating, I would think it'd have to be sold as a complete package.

I'd love to read the standard itself, more out of curiosity as an engineer than anything, but I'm not about to fork over the $250 it costs to buy access to it. As such, everything I'm saying is only my inference from reading secondary sources, so I could be totally wrong.

Interestingly, Apeks has a discussion on their website where they talk about having their octopuses rated separately for use to EN250a standards. Also, to an early mentioned question about what EN250 rates the use of an octopus to, they reference a minimum operating depth of 100 feet. Their octopus ratings are with the intent of exceeding that.




Now I'm extremely curious to look at the actual EN250 and EN250:2014 standards side by side.

BTW- After spending some time on the Atomic site, the M1 is the only 2nd stage I find that mentions it is designed for cold water.

And, hopefully last note (ha! what are the chances?...) on the subject, the whole evaluation of relative freeze resistance for a regulator is made tougher to understand and research when the engineering and design teams pass it off to the marketing folks that are writing the website copy.

 

[saxman242]

BTW- After spending some time on the Atomic site, the M1 is the only 2nd stage I find that mentions it is designed for cold water.

And, hopefully last note (ha! what are the chances?...) on the subject, the whole evaluation of relative freeze resistance for a regulator is made tougher to understand and research when the engineering and design teams pass it off to the marketing folks that are writing the website copy.

I think what you're seeing with the M1 is that its 2nd stage is designed for "much" colder water. It includes a bigger heat sink on the 2nd stage and a different exhaust valve. The T3, ST1, and M1 first stage all come standard with their "optional freeze protection", aka the coldwater kit that avoids the >10C limitation. On the B2, Z3, and Z2, the "optional freeze protection" is actually optional.

 

[saxman242]

So my basic point remains: Do NOT assume a component or a system is suitable for CW without affirmative documentation. And to also realize that freeze proof is an ideal concept - we are really dealing with freeze resistant, to a greater or lesser extent depending on brand/model/design.

Absolutely. No argument there.

 

[JackD342]

I think what you're seeing with the M1 is that its 2nd stage is designed for "much" colder water. It includes a bigger heat sink on the 2nd stage and a different exhaust valve. The T3, ST1, and M1 first stage all come standard with their "optional freeze protection", aka the coldwater kit that avoids the >10C limitation. On the B2, Z3, and Z2, the "optional freeze protection" is actually optional.

My main take away from the Atomic website documentation is that CW suitability is not clearly communicated, and is open to interpretation. Sadly, I think for many (most?) brands that is the rule, not the exception.

So I am curious - anyone have any newer Atomic purchases with EN250A marking on them? What are they?
(I mentioned before that even if they test, they might not mark US production. I would not have thought of that before I discovered that Sherwood was only marking their product in EU distribution and leaving ALL US production unstamped. That will be changing in the future.)