Ontario Diver
Guest
Don't wear a tie at all!
(It is an entanglement hazard)
(It is an entanglement hazard)
Long hose in panic situation?
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The problem is that someone who is goofy enough to attack you in the first place is also a significant risk of taking you out in a fight.
Disable them first, make darn sure you really disable them so that they don't manage to kill you in the mess. If you can disable them without killing them, great. How can you be sure?
Dead men never continue to fight.
Dieing men often fight to the end.
Have you ever had to use deadly force to protect yourself?
I have.
It was not fun but I am the one who is still around to ponder the fine points of it all.
michael
Disable them first, make darn sure you really disable them so that they don't manage to kill you in the mess. If you can disable them without killing them, great. How can you be sure?
Dead men never continue to fight.
Dieing men often fight to the end.
Have you ever had to use deadly force to protect yourself?
I have.
It was not fun but I am the one who is still around to ponder the fine points of it all.
michael
solodiver
Guest
Someone who comes up to you in an out of air situation, is going to grab the piece of equipment he know works.. You guessed it.. thats the one out of your mouth.and thats where my 7 ft hosed second is, in my mouth. The back up is necklaced around my neckand hangs just under my chin. so it's easy to get at for me.
And you know the way you guys are talking.. sure make me glad I do a lot of solo diving...
And you know the way you guys are talking.. sure make me glad I do a lot of solo diving...
CheeseWhiz
Contributor
...that all the talk of "panic prone," "unreliable" or "inexperienced" (I've probably missed a few) are off the mark.
Just read "The Last Dive" for stories of very experienced, very capable divers who did very stupid things and (gasp!) panicked. It can happen to anyone under the right circumstances. Heaven forbid that any of us ever find ourselves in those situations. Simply to assume that you'll be shallow and within NDL may not save you.
Just read "The Last Dive" for stories of very experienced, very capable divers who did very stupid things and (gasp!) panicked. It can happen to anyone under the right circumstances. Heaven forbid that any of us ever find ourselves in those situations. Simply to assume that you'll be shallow and within NDL may not save you.
It is better not to simply assume such things but to actively insure such things....
I dive on occassion with folks who would be dangerous on anything but the most benign shore dive. How else are they going to get experience? How else am I going to be a positive influence in their developement as a diver?
But I do my best to insure that we are shallow and well within the NDL.
On the other hand Shane and I regularly test one another with unexpected OOA senarios that often involve a 30' swim at 100fsw. Because we practice, the chance of a panic reaction is seriously curtailed.
You mentioned the word stupid.... unfortunately there is no antidote for stupid... but consistent and constant training can be substituted for stupid prophylactically.
In an emergency you always revert to what you were trained (conditioned) to do....
CheeseWhiz
Contributor
It's simply not possible to practice various simulated emergency situations often enough. Your attitude on these matters should be an inspiration to all of us.
My only point was that under the right set of circumstances, anyone can panic. We would all like to think we are experienced, trained, have thought out every contingency, etc etc, but it's happened before....it'll happen again.
But since none of us knows what tomorrow holds in store for us, I'll follow your lead, UP, and keep practicing and rehearsing.
My only point was that under the right set of circumstances, anyone can panic. We would all like to think we are experienced, trained, have thought out every contingency, etc etc, but it's happened before....it'll happen again.
But since none of us knows what tomorrow holds in store for us, I'll follow your lead, UP, and keep practicing and rehearsing.
I agree totally !
TAKE SOMEONE OUT ??
what is that ?
comon what are you trying to do ?
MAD (mutually assured destruction) ? if you come near me ill blow us both up using a handgrenade ? this has to be the dumbest thing anyone have said. "Take him out" ? military experinced in underwater hand to hand combat huh ? comon guys !
if someone is OOA shove the reg into his mouth freflow it there and let him start breathing, a panicked diver WILL START CLIMBING ON YOU ! thats a known fact.
its always good to practice OOA situations, BUT remember that a OOA diver wont turn to his buddy he/she will turn to whoever is nearest or in sight !!
if the nearest diver is not their buddy they will not swim away and say "oh sorry, jolly good i spotted that you where not my buddy before i took your reg from you, ill just tad along and try to find my buddy!"
They dont care who you are ! they just want AIR ! AND NOW !!
and next thing they want to do is GET THE F**C* OUT OF THERE!!!
The best thing you can do for them is to get your arms around their neck (that way it is more dificult for them to tear your mask away and/or take your reg out of your mouth) and look them in the eyes when you have shoved the reg in their mouth, get eye contact !!! that is reasureing them that its ok !! get close not far away !! far away they will feel lonely and thats not helping them with panick... !!
shure if it doesnt help then showe them away and let them start drowning and then salvage them immediately you can do that without risk for yourself, starting medical help when surfacing.
Atleast this is what I have learned.
if i am in error please correct me !
this means that I can se very little use in a 7 hose in a panicked diver situation. i can however se it afterwards or a non panicked diver situation.
then again I am just a rec diver who loves diving.
take care and dive safe !
"take him out ?" the best i would think of that frase is "for dinner afterwards ! to discuss this incident."
Would someone be kind enough to explain why having the out of air diver close to you is a bad thing? I'm not a tech diver. Like Hobbs and probably the majority of the people here I was trained to keep the person as close as possible for control purposes. If they won't behave we were taught to put our feet on them and kick them away. As an out-of-air diver (we always step on the boat with NO less than 500psi so we don't have this problem right?) our training told us to keep our buddy close so you don't get separated by waves, current or other hazards in the area and to behave yourself since you now have air.
Even though I dive a short hose you get the one in my mouth so it probably wouldn't be hard for me to switch to a long hose and necklace my octo. I'm interested in when you should start training someone to not hold on to you too. OW? AOW? leadership levels? or the higher technical levels of training when you may be in an area where two divers won't fit side by side?
Gotta learn something new every day or the brain goes stale!
Ber
Even though I dive a short hose you get the one in my mouth so it probably wouldn't be hard for me to switch to a long hose and necklace my octo. I'm interested in when you should start training someone to not hold on to you too. OW? AOW? leadership levels? or the higher technical levels of training when you may be in an area where two divers won't fit side by side?
Gotta learn something new every day or the brain goes stale!
Ber
I will try to catch you both with one post...
Why are you guys diving with the panic prone?
How deep are you diving with the panic prone?
Have you ever tried to control an actual OOA panic stricken diver?
How was your buoyancy control while wrestling a panic stricken diver who is desperately finning for the surface?
Just how do you *control* them.... how do you stop them from finning up... how do you *hold them down*...
I've seen this is action and it is fun to watch.
It is boring to watch Shane and I do a Shared air ascent on the long hose.
You might say, "Well sure, that is you and Shane but what would do if a panic striken OOA swam up to you at 160'"
I take great care to insure that that can't happen but if it did I would politely extend the long hose, make sure that I wasn't *grabbed* and back away. If the OOA was pleased to stay with me in a controlled ascent with stops then all would be fine. If not then I would let them go their way.
Why are you guys diving with the panic prone?
How deep are you diving with the panic prone?
Have you ever tried to control an actual OOA panic stricken diver?
How was your buoyancy control while wrestling a panic stricken diver who is desperately finning for the surface?
Just how do you *control* them.... how do you stop them from finning up... how do you *hold them down*...
I've seen this is action and it is fun to watch.
It is boring to watch Shane and I do a Shared air ascent on the long hose.
You might say, "Well sure, that is you and Shane but what would do if a panic striken OOA swam up to you at 160'"
I take great care to insure that that can't happen but if it did I would politely extend the long hose, make sure that I wasn't *grabbed* and back away. If the OOA was pleased to stay with me in a controlled ascent with stops then all would be fine. If not then I would let them go their way.
VTWarrenG
Guest
The panicked diver, climbing all over you, will make it very difficult to control your equipment -- especially buoyancy. When you hold onto each, you're likely to achieve a difference in buoyancy -- you're using one BC to stabilize two divers. If you should happen to let go, bam, you've got one diver rocketing to the surface, and one sinking to the bottom. In addition, it's pretty hard to swim any direction but UP if you're manhandling each other.
On the other hand, if you make manhandling improper, and use a long hose so that both parties can swim comfortably in their own space, then everything you've ever learned about diving remains the same. You're both swimming the same way, controlling buoyancy the same way, and moving around the same way as if you weren't sharing air. The only minor difference is the long hose deployed between you.
The grab-on-and-hold genie-style kick-up air sharing episodes are dangerous and difficult to control, because they're nothing like normal diving. They require a unique skill set. There's no point in that. And I think it's clear that in a cave or overhead (which is where DIR really shines), being close togother, or god forbid grabbed onto one another, is just about the worst thing you can do.
When one diver is OOA, there should still be two independent divers -- just now one has a deployed long hose to breathe from.
- Warren
On the other hand, if you make manhandling improper, and use a long hose so that both parties can swim comfortably in their own space, then everything you've ever learned about diving remains the same. You're both swimming the same way, controlling buoyancy the same way, and moving around the same way as if you weren't sharing air. The only minor difference is the long hose deployed between you.
The grab-on-and-hold genie-style kick-up air sharing episodes are dangerous and difficult to control, because they're nothing like normal diving. They require a unique skill set. There's no point in that. And I think it's clear that in a cave or overhead (which is where DIR really shines), being close togother, or god forbid grabbed onto one another, is just about the worst thing you can do.
When one diver is OOA, there should still be two independent divers -- just now one has a deployed long hose to breathe from.
- Warren
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