Liability of Agencies for their instructors??

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Do you have an example of this fraud? As many years as I've been diving, many of those in the industry and even teaching, still I've yet to see any fraud. Oh, I disagree with many of the procedures and standards kept by the industry, but that's not fraud.

Yes, it actually is. Remember the Ford Pinto? Takata air bags? The auto industry is often guilty of selling bad products until they are caught and sued.

Unfortunately, people often make buying decisions based on impulse, not research. Caveat emptor, sure, but few actually heed that warning. Even then, there's scant information about bad instructors, because students often blame themselves.

No it isn't and you prove my point. The government has regulations. If they didn't and allowed the market to dictate safety (which wouldn't result in improved safety). The government gets involved when there is failure of compliance/lawsuits.

 

[boulderjohn]

People lie to get students and classes. Its fraud, its rampant, and there are few ways for a consumer to know until after the fact. "The market" is broken.

I don't know what it means to "lie to get students and classes." Could you give an example?

 

[The Chairman]

No it isn't and you prove my point. The government has regulations. If they didn't and allowed the market to dictate safety (which wouldn't result in improved safety). The government gets involved when there is failure of compliance/lawsuits.

No, what isn't? I covered more than one topic in my post. Please clarify.

The government hasn't gotten involved because there haven't been too many deaths yet. As I posted before, the teaching of the sport is mostly safe. The industry provides lots of lawyers to prove it's not their standards that caused the fatalities when someone dies, and instructors don't care if it's not them under the crosshairs.

I'm not sure if I covered your point or not.

 

[rjack321]

I don't know what it means to "lie to get students and classes." Could you give an example?

"Our courses are the most rigorous! Diving is fun and safe!"

Seriously every shop in existence has fluffed up their marketing and purported class rigor. NOBODY says "we give you the bare minimum to survive" despite many shops barely even rising to that bar.

 

[The Chairman]

Seriously every shop in existence has fluffed up their marketing and purported class rigor.

Again, show us an example of this.

I found this: https://www.scubatoys.com/education...qTs1TlxbOjYEtMTTGhYMApmz26Yx6xcPQI834fu2b4Yu_

I didn't detect any fraud in that advert at all.

Here's another: Open Water Diver Course

It was really bare-bones compared to ScubaToys, but what did I miss?

Your premise was "every shop", and the first two I found on the web did not contain anything remotely like your contention. Again, what am I missing?

I used the Google search parameters "Buy scuba course".

 

[boulderjohn]

NOBODY says "we give you the bare minimum to survive" despite many shops barely even rising to that bar.

Ah! So scuba shops should be like all the other businesses that advertise that they provide a crappy product that you would never want.

 

[scubadada]

Dive instruction is a race to the bottom. It always has been. Pay is a joke as a puppy mill dive shops. Paying my kids’ ski or golf instructors…$$$$. Right now Sitting while kid in a hockey clinic. $$$$ I feel bad when someone asks me to recommend someone. I can’t in good conscience.

I had 1 good boss and fair compensation in 20+ years of paying membership fees. He retired. I lasted only a few courses of crap after that.

People do pay good money for good instruction. Dive shop pay is a joke.

I found this an interesting post. My children took skill-oriented sports training in skiing, tennis. and karate. We paid a premium price for this training. It would appear that scuba diving is not viewed as the same, skill-oriented type of sport and is not worthy of the same level of payment. I'm not sure why this is the case. It may be due to the fact that there is a very limited new population interested in scuba diving and the competition for this population has led to lower prices for initial certification. Of course, it is the belief, that new certifications will lead to divers with equipment requirements and ongoing training needs. The model is simply broken these days of so many competing activities, many costing much less and being easier than diving.

 

[boulderjohn]

I found this an interesting post. My children took skill-oriented sports training in skiing, tennis. and karate. We paid a premium price for this training. It would appear that scuba diving is not viewed as the same, skill-oriented type of sport and is not worthy of the same level of payment. I'm not sure why this is the case. It may be due to the fact that there is a very limited new population interested in scuba diving and the competition for this population has led to lower prices for initial certification. Of course, it is the belief, that new certifications will lead to divers with equipment requirements and ongoing training needs. The model is simply broken these days of so many competing activities, many costing much less and being easier than diving.

Anyone who has ever paid for any sort of training for any kind of other sport knows that scuba instruction is ridiculously cheap. The idea that scuba instructors are ridiculously underpaid is well accepted.

Yet, in ScubaBoard threads you will see people saying the exact opposite. If I am a skier and I decide to take a class to learn how to ski gates so I can compete in NASTAR racing, of course it is assumed I will pay a lot of money for that class. If I am a scuba diver and want to take a class to learn a more advanced scuba skill, people will pile on in threads, calling the fact that such a course would even be offered an "agency money grab."

Anyone reading a typical ScubaBoard thread will assume that the typical scuba diver believes all instruction should be offered free, and any instructor who hopes to be paid for instruction is a money-grabbing piece of pond scum. I cannot think of any other activity where this is true.