Liability of Agencies for their instructors??

[The Chairman]

However, every diver will die either before or after training.

Wow. I bow to your intellect. So, so clever. Obviously, I was referring to the causality of their deaths. Obviously.

I wonder how this is handled in comparable sports

In Florida, there is a law that prevents people from suing anyone for a horse related injury or death. It's accepted that riding a horse is hazardous. It's my opinion that there should be a similar law for diving.

 

[KenE]

I would like to address the original post and analogy to the medical profession. Licensed professions have a profound affect on the public, whether it is Engineering, Medical, Flight, or whatever they are on a different level of responsibility than diving, rock climbing, and other higher risk hobbies. The assumption made by the OP is that diving certification meets this same level of training, expertise, and duty to the public. This is a bad assumption.

The liability comes back to the individual when it comes to diving. The student takes some risk, the instructor takes some risk, and the shop takes some risk. However, the agency will not, and the OP's question is why. The certification issued by the agency only allows the instructor to use the agencies material and standards. It does not provide a license to teach. In fact, anyone can teach someone to dive (I don't recommend it), but this is true, there is no law that prevents it. There are laws that prevent Engineers, Medical, and Flight personnel from practicing without a license.

The instructor takes on the risk of teaching and this is why most courts come back to the instructor for liability. If the instructor can demonstrate that the shop caused the instructor to do something that increased that risk then the courts will find that the shop has liability. The problem with the OP's intent is that it is very difficult for the instructor or shop to demonstrate how the certifying agency had any role in the action that caused harm. They would need to show how the training material was flawed to cause harm. This is highly unlikely due to agency attorneys review of material before issuing.

Do we have bad instructors, some, yes. Do we have good instructors, most, yes. The problem is educating new students the difference. Most new students believe that their instructor is licensed, as we discussed above, this is just not true. I don't advocate for licensure, but we need to educate the public of this fact. If we could, I believe the public would weed out bad instructor and bad shops. Can the agencies help with this? Yes, but it is not in their financial interest to do so. Can the shops help with this? Same answer. I know SB says it all the time, find a good instructor! How do we get this word out to the public? That I believe is the real question!

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I would like to address the original post and analogy to the medical profession. Licensed professions have a profound affect on the public, whether it is Engineering, Medical, Flight, or whatever they are on a different level of responsibility than diving, rock climbing, and other higher risk hobbies. The assumption made by the OP is that diving certification meets this same level of training, expertise, and duty to the public. This is a bad assumption.

The liability comes back to the individual when it comes to diving. The student takes some risk, the instructor takes some risk, and the shop takes some risk. However, the agency will not, and the OP's question is why. The certification issued by the agency only allows the instructor to use the agencies material and standards. It does not provide a license to teach. In fact, anyone can teach someone to dive (I don't recommend it), but this is true, there is no law that prevents it. There are laws that prevent Engineers, Medical, and Flight personnel from practicing without a license.

The instructor takes on the risk of teaching and this is why most courts come back to the instructor for liability. If the instructor can demonstrate that the shop caused the instructor to do something that increased that risk then the courts will find that the shop has liability. The problem with the OP's intent is that it is very difficult for the instructor or shop to demonstrate how the certifying agency had any role in the action that caused harm. They would need to show how the training material was flawed to cause harm. This is highly unlikely due to agency attorneys review of material before issuing.

Do we have bad instructors, some, yes. Do we have good instructors, most, yes. The problem is educating new students the difference. Most new students believe that their instructor is licensed, as we discussed above, this is just not true. I don't advocate for licensure, but we need to educate the public of this fact. If we could, I believe the public would weed out bad instructor and bad shops. Can the agencies help with this? Yes, but it is not in their financial interest to do so. Can the shops help with this? Same answer. I know SB says it all the time, find a good instructor! How do we get this word out to the public? That I believe is the real question!

How do you find a good instructor?
Word of mouth.
Still the most tried and trued way of doing business.
People say you can talk to them and interview them. Sure you can, they can also tell you exactly what you want to hear and not be worth three grains of salt.
Positive reviews from vetted sources is the best way.

 

[The Chairman]

How do you find a good instructor?

​

 

[rjack321]

It sounds like it’s just all about the money.

The agency has figured out through a history of multiple lawsuits the fine art of deflection, but continues to make money in registration fees.
The dive shop has figured out how to shave as much labor/time off instruction as possible to be profitable.
The disposable part that wears out and gets replaced is the instructor.
The aim is to fill cattle boats, resorts, sell trips and tons of expensive gear, and somehow get more and more people to sign up to feed the machine.
Then when something goes wrong everybody lawyers up and the sh_t rolls down right onto the instructor.
Then everyone wonders why there is a shortage of instructors now?
I could have been an instructor 20 times over if I wanted. But seeing what they have to go through and how they get compensated there no F-ing way I would do that job, I couldn’t do that job, there’s only so much time in a day to make what needs to be made to survive, especially in my area.

Does this sound about right?

In a normal universe someone without a financial incentive would step into such an industry and regulate in the interest of public health and safety. Upton Sinclair anyone? This is how we get meat and eggs that are safe to eat, strawberries not coated in e. coli, airplanes that only under exceptional circumstances fall apart, air bags... The list goes on. Scuba instruction is not of that universe cause "government bad"

 

[rjack321]

Economics 101, let the market decide.

People lie to get students and classes. Its fraud, its rampant, and there are few ways for a consumer to know until after the fact. "The market" is broken.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Economics 101, let the market decide.

Fortunately, that is not the approach taken with car safety.

 

[DiveLikeAMuppet]

Fortunately, that is not the approach taken with car safety.

Unfortunately it is. US roads are full of "trucks", massive tanks as that warrants a higher survival chance in case of a collision... and this disease is spreading to Europe too, with all the SUVs and fake SUVs... Trust me, you do not want to meet a Surrey banker wife driving a white Range Rover tank car in the middle of a narrow road.

We would all (humans, planet, environment) be better off if we all could drive a tiny Peugeot 207. Similar disease, but scuba training went cheaper and cheaper instead of bigger and bigger for no reason.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Unfortunately it is. US roads are full of "trucks", massive tanks as that warrants a higher survival chance in case of a collision... and this disease is spreading to Europe too, with all the SUVs and fake SUVs... Trust me, you do not want to meet a Surrey banker wife driving a white Range Rover tank car in the middle of a narrow road.

We would all (humans, planet, environment) be better off if we all could drive a tiny Peugeot 207. Similar disease, but scuba training went cheaper and cheaper instead of bigger and bigger for no reason.

Seatbelt requirements, crash test requirements.

Sure, we could mandate carbon fiber frames, smaller cars, etc..

I'm quite familiar with what is being driven in Europe as I spent a fair bit of time there, mostly in Greece. And my uncle in Athens advised me many years ago, expect everyone to be muppets and do stupid things (actually he used the work malakes, but I'm translating to British)

 

[The Chairman]

People lie to get students and classes. Its fraud, its rampant, and there are few ways for a consumer to know until after the fact. "The market" is broken.

Do you have an example of this fraud? As many years as I've been diving, many of those in the industry and even teaching, still I've yet to see any fraud. Oh, I disagree with many of the procedures and standards kept by the industry, but that's not fraud.

Fortunately, that is not the approach taken with car safety.

Yes, it actually is. Remember the Ford Pinto? Takata air bags? The auto industry is often guilty of selling bad products until they are caught and sued.

Unfortunately, people often make buying decisions based on impulse, not research. Caveat emptor, sure, but few actually heed that warning. Even then, there's scant information about bad instructors, because students often blame themselves.