Liability of Agencies for their instructors??

[tursiops]

It seems its all about the individual instructor.

This is definitely the SB mantra.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

It seems its all about the individual instructor.

It is if they are fully independent and do what they want, then it’s the instructor. If they are under strict control of a dive shop/center and their teaching protocol is dictated by the shop, then it’s the shop not the instructor.
If everything is followed to the letter exactly as the agency has outlined by the shop and/or instructor and you still think it sucks then it’s the agency.

 

[tursiops]

If everything is followed to the letter exactly as the agency has outlined

You seem to think that the agency proscribes exactly what to say and how to do things, and how to observe, and empathize, and explain, etc. There is a human being in this loop, not an automaton.

 

[boulderjohn]

You seem to think that the agency proscribes exactly what to say and how to do things, and how to observe, and empathize, and explain, etc. There is a human being in this loop, not an automaton.

And even if the training were as exemplary as possible....

As we discuss this issue, another thread is going over the truly horrific story of a fatality in a class in which the instruction was bad beyond belief. In fact, I questioned if it was even a class, because the instructor did not do anything resembling instructing and paid little to no attention to the student. It was a PADI instructor, and in the initial discussions years ago, people asked how PADI could have certified such a bad instructor.

Well, do you think the instructor was that bad while being trained and while taking the instructor exam? Another instructor in the thread said he had worked with her in the past, and she was just fine then. Wondering how the agency could have certified an instructor who totally ignored both curriculum and the student is like wondering how the state driving license examiner could have given a driver's license to a man who later caused an accident while driving drunk. He probably was not drunk, and he probably did just fine--maybe splendidly--when he took the exam.

 

[Nick_Radov]

It's very difficult for agencies for oversee insturctors.

Yes, it is difficult. And yet some agencies choose to do it anyway despite the effort and expense. Difficult is not impossible.

This is why we always tell prospective students that the 'agency' does not matter. The qualitiy of training is down to dive center and ultimately, with the individual instructor.

That's not what I tell prospective students. The agency can matter, if the agency establishes standards above the industry norm and rigorously enforces quality controls. Whether this is really necessary or compatible with industry economic realities (i.e. OW certification classes for $145 through Groupon) is another issue. While agency quality controls aren't an absolute guarantee — there will always be occasional duds who slip through the cracks for a while — there is a pretty clear difference in the average instructor quality level for certain agencies.

Legal liability for that is an entirely different matter, and rather pointless to discuss in general or hypothetical terms for agencies that operate in many jurisdictions worldwide.

 

[boulderjohn]

Yes, it is difficult. And yet some agencies choose to do it anyway despite the effort and expense. Difficult is not impossible.

I think they will all tell you they do it. The degree to which they actually do is another matter altogether.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

You seem to think that the agency proscribes exactly what to say and how to do things, and how to observe, and empathize, and explain, etc. There is a human being in this loop, not an automaton.

The agency has a list of things that need to be taught and passed to a satisfactory level.
All the instructor has to do is make sure they cover all of those things as outlined by the agency. The shop/instructor subscribes to whatever agency they decide to use because supposedly it’s a tried and trued system, right? But it is a system and it needs to be followed as the agency has it written, otherwise what the point?
So what’s the big deal?
Just do your job.

If an instructor or shop is charging for but shorting the customer by not including all of the material as outlined by the agency then they are committing fraud.

 

[tursiops]

If an instructor or shop is charging for but shorting the customer by not including all of the material as outlined by the agency then they are committing fraud.

I agree completely, and am not defending crappy teaching.

But crappy teaching is the fault of the instructor and/or the shop, not the agency.

An agency can't monitor and control everything....especially if you are large and global. So you do what you can, expel the worst offenders (if they get reported, which people don't do), and try and make the standards clear and unambiguous.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I agree completely, and am not defending crappy teaching.

But crappy teaching is the fault of the instructor and/or the shop, not the agency.

An agency can't monitor and control everything....especially if you are large and global. So you do what you can, expel the worst offenders (if they get reported, which people don't do), and try and make the standards clear and unambiguous.

I absolutely agree that crappy teaching is the fault of the instructor, and in some cases the shop/dive center if they are dictating that the instructor break standards. But any instructor with any integrity should extricate themselves from a situation like that if they have any dignity and sense of self preservation. If a problem was to occur based on the pressures dictated by the shop, you know as well as I do that a shop like that will throw the instructor under the bus in a hot second as soon as someone gets hurt.

The agency is only the entity that wrote the program, and these materials are good, provided they are followed properly and thoroughly. The instructors are not directly employed by the agencies therefore the agency does not have any control over what goes on after the instructors get their certifications and begin teaching.

 

[The Chairman]

But there has to be a balance between ‘the money’ and the value.

Economics 101, let the market decide.

There’s also a responsibility to the right thing.

Very few people die before or after training. Outside of that, what is "right" is debatable. Personally, I would never teach a student on their knees. Yet, most classes are taught in that manner.

It seems its all about the individual instructor.

No need for lots of studies to determine that. That's been rather obvious since I was in 3rd grade.