Let's chat about DSLR vs Point and Shoot - looking for some wisdom / experience

[tarponchik]

The camera lens front element needs to be as close as possible to the wet lens rear element. Otherwise, with wet wide lenses, you get vignetting, and with close-up lenses you lose magnification. You can counter vignetting by zooming in, but then you lose angle of view.

Right...so this simply means "zoom in when using the wet lens"?

There are actually some subtle pros and cons to both cameras, size notwithstanding. A6xxx series is limited to 1/160s flash sync speed, and while it's possible to overcome that by using HSS (high-speed sync), it's expensive - 2x€1,065 for a pair of Retra Pros, and another €259 for an s-TURTLE trigger to drive them - and you still lose considerable flash power when operating in this mode. This makes shooting into the sun difficult. Conversely, the RX100 series come with leaf shutters that sync with strobes all the way to 1/2000s.

On the other hand, RX100 cameras starting with M3 lack a hot shoe, which leaves the pop-up flash as the only method of triggering strobes. If you're shooting fast action, you may want to use bursts, and the pop-up flash prevents that. The only modern exception is the ZV-1, which replaces the EVF and flash with a hot shoe and microphone, but the only housing for that camera is from Ikelite.

When it comes to macro, all of these cameras come with their own limitations and trade-offs. The A6xxx series has access to four macro lenses - Sony 30mm, Sony-Zeiss 50mm, Sony FE 50mm and Sony FE 90mm. The 30mm is too short to function as a proper macro lens, the Sony-Zeiss 50mm only supports CDAF which makes its focus slow and unreliable, Sony FE 50mm has its own issues with speed and image quality, and while the Sony FE 90mm gives great IQ, it is somewhat tight on APS-C crop (135mm equivalent) and isn't a speed demon either. I use a Sony A6300 and my primary macro lens is actually a Canon EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM on a Metabones IV adapter, which works reasonably well, but it requires good light to lock focus - with a focus light, it is generally fast and reliable, but without a focus light, it tends to just hunt back and forth forever.

RX100 macro pros and cons depend on the model. Models III through VA (VA - five-A - is the guts of model VI in a model V body and lens) and ZV-1 come with a 24-70mm equivalent lens, which can be used for macro with a diopter, but is a bit short for the really tiny stuff - you won't be filling the frame with a squat shrimp, for an example. Models I and II are a bit better in this regard, with a 100mm equivalent lens on the long end (and, incidentally, 28mm on the wide end, which is the target FL of most wet lenses - the 24mm wide end that you get on newer models requires a touch of zoom on these to remove vignetting) but they're old and slow, with only contrast detection for focusing. Models VI and VII come with a 24-200mm equivalent lens, which is potentially capable of some really great macro - you can fill the frame with incredibly tiny stuff - but exploiting this capability is challenging. Not only is finding, focusing and framing these tiny critters difficult on the photographer, but you need a number of different strength diopters - a +15 lens will let you shoot a tiny subject, but not a slightly larger one for which you may need a +10 or even a +5, so you need to get good at managing those underwater.

Then there is the issue of viewfinders. Many underwater photographers absolutely swear by their 45-degree magnifying viewfinders. They make it possible to get the camera really low to the bottom for macro shots while hovering above it and still having unobstructed view through the lens, and they also make it easier to shoot at an upward angle in wide scenes without going through crazy contortions. For mirrorless users, as opposed to DSLR, they also make it possible to review shots right there in the viewfinder, without switching between viewfinder and the LCD screen. However, while RX100 models III through VII feature a pop-up EVF, no housing that I know of has a viewfinder mount that will access it. SeaFrogs Salted Line RX1xx has a built-in viewfinder, but I tried using the one on my A6xxx Salted Line housing, and it's complete garbage. If you're shooting an RX100 series camera underwater, you're doing it through the LCD screen. Best you can do to mimic an SLR/MILC viewfinder is a magnifying hood that attaches over the screen, something like this.

When it comes to video, A6xxx cameras do full-width sensor recording at 4K24P, but add a 1.2x crop at 4K30P. As far as I know, RX100V and upward shoot 4K without cropping, and they can do a short burst of slow-motion video up to 960fps

Both A6xxx and RX100 series can be shot as either flexible or dedicated wide/macro rigs. The Alpha cameras can use the 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 PZ lens, which works well with both wet wide lenses (WWL-1, WWL-C, KRL-1, UWL-09) and diopters, although the 75mm-equivalent long end won't get you into supermacro territory. The long lens of RX100 VI and VII presents some challenges with housings, but it boils down to choosing between a long port and a short one. In a long port, you can shoot the full range of zoom, but because the lens retracts deep inside the port on the wide end, you cannot utilize wet wide lenses, and 24mm behind flat port (which reduces AoV) is not particularly wide, so you're restricted to fish portraits and macro. In a short port, your zoom ability is restricted, compromising macro (but you can still shoot it about as well as an RX100V or an A6xxx with 16-50mm), but you can mount wet wide lenses for about 130 degrees of maximum AoV.

Thanks for your review!

 

[Barmaglot]

Right...so this simply means "zoom in when using the wet lens"?

Yes, but by extension, it means that you can't achieve the full angle of view advertised for the wet lens. Panasonic LX10 suffers from the same issue; you can see what it looks like here: The results are in... I finally got into the pool to test these lenses KRL-01 vs UWL-09 Pro

 

[David Haas]

To tarponchik,

On any compact but especially newer ones (Canon G7X II / III and Sony RX100 V/ Va / VI / VII) with a 24mm native lens focal length you may have to "tap" the zoom to eliminate vignetting. It will depend on what WA lens you've attached, what housing you're using, etc. Yes, the beautiful Nauticam WWL-1 (28mm) or newer WWL-C are great but work best on a Nauticam housing. Other brand wet lenses may not have as good results.

I would contend tapping from 24mm to 28mm using lenses designed for 28mm isn't a huge deal and maybe equivalent to backing up 6" - 12" or so. You could shoot everything full wide if you only see mild vignetting then crop the corners easily in post.

The other issue I read all the time is "how wide is wide enough?" Well........it depends on what you're shooting and how close you can actually get to a critter

Getting as close as possible and shooting "tight" (meaning filling the frame) is a more important technique to master in my opinion.

I've used many wide angle lenses including fisheyes in housings plus wet lens compact equivalents. Many times the widest (130-140 degrees) were challenging to get close ENOUGH and not have so much water or whatever around my main subject.

For certain shots especially lighting with strobes or lights being closer can help.

For ambient light shots whatever brightness you have will more effect the final result and 24mm to 28mm on a compact isn't as huge a deal sometimes

Just an opinion

David Haas

 

[nanohawk]

The main strength of the TG-6 is the easy and convenient access to macro - unlike most compacts, its lens is capable of very close focusing without add-on diopters, so you don't get the 'donut hole' where a subject is too small to shoot with a bare lens, but too big for your close-up lens.

It's also cheap. $1200 including both domes that Backscatter sells, although I think only one would be needed if you wanted to do WA.

E-PL10 strengths are a larger sensor (although at the bottom end of what's available for ILCs), access to some quite nice micro four thirds lenses, and a very nice entry level housing made by AOI. Underwater, you can shoot it both like a compact, with the 14-42mm kit lens and wet lenses from AOI or other suppliers, or like an ILC, with fisheye, rectilinear ultrawide and macro lenses.
Its main weakness is the very dated 16MP sensor which lacks PDAF, so image quality will lag behind other ILCs and autofocus will be slow.

What is ILC? Sorry, I don't recognize that acronym.

The cost for a full E-PL10 package with AOI housing, camera, lenses and strobes is somewhere in the $4000 to $6000 range, depending on what lenses and strobes you pick.

Yea, it's $4k pre strobes/trays to properly equip for both macro and WA. The base camera and case are a quite attractive $1316 new, with an extra o-ring.

Macro lens, port, close up lens and flip adapter add $1119. Still do-able for a Macro step-up.

The wide angle lens and float collar are another $1174.

My pricing numbers are based on buying the 60mm lens used.

I think the ELP-10 is a better camera than the TG-6, but the TG-6 gets points for being very versatile and very good in it's own right. It's just flat cheap and used units can be had for $300 in the event that you manage to line up the stars and flood the housing and camera.

I know I need to add strobes, but that's another conversation... and I feel like I need to pick the camera first.

 

[scubadada]

My wife, an UW photo neophyte, has her TG-6 in an Olympus housing. Even if it would have a minor flood, the camera would likely be fine. Not quite a vacuum system, but just fine for us

 

[nanohawk]

My wife, an UW photo neophyte, has her TG-6 in an Olympus housing. Even if it would have a minor flood, the camera would likely be fine. Not quite a vacuum system, but just fine for us

That's one of the other nice features... it's a very redundant system.

 

[DavidFL]

I know I need to add strobes, but that's another conversation...

@nanohawk, I think you've mentioned previous experiences with Ikelite housings, if you have any legacy DS strobes, you can trigger them and even get TTL strobe quenching with a TG6 in the Olympus housing using these Ikelite TTL receivers:

 

[nanohawk]

@nanohawk, I think you've mentioned previous experiences with Ikelite housings, if you have any legacy DS strobes, you can trigger them and even get TTL strobe quenching with a TG6 in the Olympus housing using these Ikelite TTL receivers:
View attachment 707938

The strobes I had at the time were used.... well used. I don't remember them ever working well enough to take on a trip.

The TG6 would be a slam dunk in terms of cost and features. I think the PEN E-PL9/10 (basically the same camera) would give me a little more flexibility similar to a DSLR. That's the direction I'm leaning.

One of the things I really like about the AOI housing that Backscatter had made is the built in vacuum and moisture monitoring. It's also a pretty affordable housing at $649. The LED strobe firing is just brilliant in terms of not sapping your battery power.

 

[Hoag]

ILC is an acronym for Interchangeable Lens Camera.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I spent some time looking at the TG-6 and it's quite impressive. One of my buddies told me to go look at the PEN E-PL10 and it's an interesting camera as well. Sigh. No simple decisions.

I think the TG-6 bumped the Sony RX-100 model whatever. The wins for the TG-6 are the microscope mode and the price point. It's an awful lot of camera for the $. I would like to see a vacuum system on the case and I'm not done doing my research.

I'm trying to quantify what the PEN E-PL10 would bring to the table and at what cost.

I think I've reached the point where I can let go of my Canon safety blanket. lol. I really have enjoyed my Canon gear... .but I think it's time for a change.. It's me not them. (satire intentional - enjoy a laugh).

As the TG6 us also rated for 15m depth without a case if you are using a case and had a minor leak it is not life ending for the camera itself. That is not the case for non waterproof cameras where housings have leaked and they got flooded. No issues with mine leaking so far and have taken it down to 45m depth. I have never had any fogging or moisture with the Olympus PT 059 housing.

Also when you close the door and then using locking mechanism you really feel it has to be firmly closed before locking. Then there is a small button to lock the locking mechanism. Risk of accidently opening the housing is nil if properly closed and locked.