Let's chat about DSLR vs Point and Shoot - looking for some wisdom / experience

[nanohawk]

It's been a couple of years since I have been diving.... (okay 7, but life happens). Aside from buying lots of dive toys I am at a decision point on which camera to take underwater and see if I can avoid flooding it while taking pictures. I'm buying dive toys because storage and time are not kind to dive gear.

I'm currently trying to tease out the advantages and disadvantages of taking a DSLR vs another point and shoot.

I used to dive a Canon Powershot something or other.... probably a G9, but it's been a while so I can't remember. I flooded one in a canon case in Maui one time, and after that I bought an Ikelite case and never had issues. I used a red filter on it and post-process in lightroom for color correction. I did not shoot a flash as at the time strobes were out of my budget.

I currently own a Canon EOS 6D and a nice assortment of lenses. My 17-40 redline would be my pick for diving as it has a minimum focal distance of around a foot. It's my go-to lens for above water shooting as well. I own a 5x Macro, but I don't see that lens being useful underwater. It's got a razor thin focal plane and is challenging enough on a tripod. The 6D is getting a little long in the tooth, but it's a solid camera with good low light performance. It replaced a 7D which had heat issues but was otherwise a great camera. The 7D replaced a 5D Mk II which replaced a 40D, which replaced a Pentax something or other when I finally got serious again about photography and took some classes to dial it in. At one time I had a Pentax K camera and was developing B&W film that I bulk loaded.... so that really dates me, but my point is that I've been doing photography for a long time.

The closest I've ever come to making money as a photographer is doing 3D scanning with a Matterport Camera and doing drone work... technically that is professional photography.. and yea I've made a bundle on both. But that's not dive photography.

For the most part this is a "because I can" / "because I want to" item. I can afford the Ikelite case if I want to, as well as the strobes to go with it.

I don't find underwater seascape photography to be that interesting. I swear if you have seen one parrotfish you've seen them all. Same goes for Nurse sharks, squirrel fish, etc. I do find the little stuff interesting and I like photographing soft corals and the little stuff around them.

If I was to go the P&S route the G7Mk3 seems to be the winner with a 1 inch sensor. I think a used camera and a Ikelite case are the minimum for me. I realize there are other cases, but I'm a big Ikelite fan and I like that the cases can be rebuilt/recertified.

I would really like to dive my big camera, but I have some concerns. My biggest headache is that the Ikelite cases are model specific for the 6D and 6D2.... which makes me consider moving back to a 5D. The 5D Mk3 is cheap these days on the used market so that takes some of the sting out if you give it a saltwater bath. And the case will work for a Mk4, so there is an upgrade path when they release a Mk5. The Mk4 is getting up there in age for Canon, although they released a bunch more alphabet soup recently.

I live in Houston and so the local diving is not photogenic... cold muddy water just doesn't do it for me. I hate cold water. My diving is on weeklong trips and it just is what it is. Living in paradise isn't in the cards for me. I mostly like to be in 30 to 45 foot water. The stuff I like tends to be there and there is decent light.

Enough rambling, here are some questions:
1) For those who made the jump from P&S to DSLR what were your experiences?
2) Folks who went from Four Locks to Dry Lock in Ikelite, was it worth it? Their marketing makes it sound like the only cheese you need....
3) Best travel setup? I'm thinking a hardcase that gets used as a carry on for strobes, dive housing, yada yada. Might be simpler to just check it also... no worse then checking dive gear which is a necessary evil. This is one of the advantages to a point and shoot.
4) Is the pump system for checking cases worth it for those that have it?

 

[MaxBottomtime]

There is a huge difference between the quality of RAW files between P&S and DSLR. That said, weight, the expense of ports, and a travel case are big factors to consider. I pack my rig in a large Pelican case and check it in. It's way too big and heavy for carry-on. I have to use floatation arms or else I'm carrying around an anchor during the dive. Still, I wouldn't go back to using a point and shoot camera. I'm happier with my photos now.

 

[nanohawk]

There is a huge difference between the quality of RAW files between P&S and DSLR. That said, weight, the expense of ports, and a travel case are big factors to consider. I pack my rig in a large Pelican case and check it in. It's way too big and heavy for carry-on. I have to use floatation arms or else I'm carrying around an anchor during the dive. Still, I wouldn't go back to using a point and shoot camera. I'm happier with my photos now.

I'm glad you mentioned flotation arms. Weight/balance is one of the concerns I had.


If you are using an Ikelite case are you using the Four Lock or Dry Lock style? Any thoughts? And what camera do you shoot if you don't mind me asking?

 

[MaxBottomtime]

I had an Ikelite housing but flooded it with my Nikon D700. I now shoot with a Nikon D850 in a Subal housing.

 

[nanohawk]

I had an Ikelite housing but flooded it with my Nikon D700. I now shoot with a Nikon D850 in a Subal housing.

What caused the flood? and were you using the vacuum system ?
When I flooded my canon housing on my powershot I'm pretty sure it was the skimpy o-ring setup.

I'm disciplined about using new o-rings on each trip, carry spares and being very very careful with them to avoid dirt, hair, lint, etc. Not saying others are not, just sharing my experience and habits.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

I always set up my housing the night before a dive. A friend kept telling me I was deforming the rear O-Ring by doing that. One time, I waited until the morning before a dive to close the housing. Unfortunately, I forgot to clamp the back on before lowering the housing in the water. I stopped listening to my friend after that.
I have a vacuum system on my Subal housing.

 

[Barmaglot]

I'm currently trying to tease out the advantages and disadvantages of taking a DSLR vs another point and shoot.

Long story short, in the years you've been away, the market has changed substantially. The basic P&S market is completely dead, taken over by phones. Premium compact cameras such as Canon G7 X series, Sony RX100 series, Panasonic LX10/LX100, etc, are still surviving, but they've got certain limitations that I will go over later in more detail. DSLRs have pretty much reached their pinnacle, and are gradually being taken over by mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras.

The primary advantages of SLRs over P&S cameras are interchangeable lenses and phase detection autofocus. Most compacts, with the notable exception of Sony RX100 series (and then only models 5, 6 and 7) rely on contrast detection for achieving focus, whereas SLRs have a dedicated phase-detection autofocus array which works much faster and more reliably. However, using this autofocus array requires you to shoot through the optical viewfinder, which can be difficult to use underwater without an add-on magnifying viewfinder, which is a fairly expensive accessory (around $1k).

Modern mirrorless cameras (with the exception of Panasonic) use hybrid autofocus - there are phase detection points all through their sensor, which they use for the initial lens focus throw, and then they fine-tune their focus using computational image analysis. This allows for things like face and eye detection and tracking, focusing aids in the viewfinder, etc; something that is not possible with purely optical viewfinders. You can also shoot through the LCD screen without loss of performance, as well as review images in the viewfinder if you're using the EVF - no need to switch between viewfinder and screen to review your shots.

My 17-40 redline would be my pick for diving as it has a minimum focal distance of around a foot.

I don't find underwater seascape photography to be that interesting. I swear if you have seen one parrotfish you've seen them all. Same goes for Nurse sharks, squirrel fish, etc. I do find the little stuff interesting and I like photographing soft corals and the little stuff around them.

Those two paragraphs are in conflict with each other. 17-40mm on a full-frame is a wide-angle lens, something you'd use for reefscapes, schools of fish, large pelagics, wrecks, other divers, etc. For good optical performance, it needs a large dome (Nauticam recommends 250mm), which precludes close-focus wide-angle. If you want to shoot small stuff with a Canon SLR, you need a macro lens, such as Canon 100m f/2.8 Macro USM, or a Sigma 70mm if you want something a bit wider.

2) Folks who went from Four Locks to Dry Lock in Ikelite, was it worth it? Their marketing makes it sound like the only cheese you need....

This really isn't a choice you can make; Ikelite has transitioned from FL to DL and all their new housings and ports use the DL system.

3) Best travel setup? I'm thinking a hardcase that gets used as a carry on for strobes, dive housing, yada yada. Might be simpler to just check it also... no worse then checking dive gear which is a necessary evil. This is one of the advantages to a point and shoot.

I use a Cinebags CB70 Square Grouper to carry everything; it's my aircraft carry-on now.

4) Is the pump system for checking cases worth it for those that have it?

Absolutely, although Ikelite's system is kind of stupid. Get a Vivid Leak Sentinel with the proper adapter. I would not dive my housing without vacuum under any circumstances.

I'm glad you mentioned flotation arms. Weight/balance is one of the concerns I had.

In general, plastic housings (Ikelite, SeaFrogs) are going to be buoyant by themselves, but adding tray, arms, and especially strobes weighs them down. I use three float arms + 2 ladder arms, and add four stix jumbo floats when I'm shooting macro, but while I have almost perfectly neutral buoyancy, trim is another matter - my rig is perfectly stable when it's horizontal, but shooting macro involves lots of awkward angles, and in those cases, it tries really hard to pull itself upright, as all the floats are at the top.

If you want a reasonably compact system with good macro capability, consider Sony RX100 VII, see Backscatter review here: Sony RX100 VII Underwater Camera Review - Underwater Photography - Backscatter

 

[nanohawk]

Long story short, in the years you've been away, the market has changed substantially. The basic P&S market is completely dead, taken over by phones. Premium compact cameras such as Canon G7 X series, Sony RX100 series, Panasonic LX10/LX100, etc, are still surviving, but they've got certain limitations that I will go over later in more detail. DSLRs have pretty much reached their pinnacle, and are gradually being taken over by mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras.

I totally agree that smartphones have largely replaced cameras for many applications. I see more specialization and a smaller market for DSLRs as opposed to their obsolesence. My iPhone 12 Pro Plus takes excellent photos and I use it on a daily basis for that purpose as an inspector. I still use the crappy camera built into my Microsoft Surface for most of my report photos. I also use my DJI Drone and I have a Fuji point and shoot that is waterproof and rugged which is great for taking places where I might drop the camera. The Fuji is the camera I put on a 40 foot pole when I need to do that.

Back to dive photography.... I think there is a strong argument for a solid P&S like the Canon G7 or the model you mentioned from Sony.

Sony in particular is still on my naughty list when it comes to still cameras. I owned a couple of their early digital cameras and have less than fond memories of being stranded / burned when Sony's whims shifted and they abandoned the memory, camera, and platform. Sony is abysmal at releasing updates. They are very much on a one and done business model where they sell you a product and whatever firmware is on it is what you are getting. I like their AV equipment and I think they make great video sensors. I own two of their TV's and a DVD player. The DVD player excels at catching dust. Their TV's last forever. I'm not ready to forgive them for the proprietary memory sticks or completely abandoning their early cameras repeatedly..... just like they did with their digital audio player (iPod competitor).

The primary advantages of SLRs over P&S cameras are interchangeable lenses and phase detection autofocus. Most compacts, with the notable exception of Sony RX100 series (and then only models 5, 6 and 7) rely on contrast detection for achieving focus, whereas SLRs have a dedicated phase-detection autofocus array which works much faster and more reliably. However, using this autofocus array requires you to shoot through the optical viewfinder, which can be difficult to use underwater without an add-on magnifying viewfinder, which is a fairly expensive accessory (around $1k).

Modern mirrorless cameras (with the exception of Panasonic) use hybrid autofocus - there are phase detection points all through their sensor, which they use for the initial lens focus throw, and then they fine-tune their focus using computational image analysis. This allows for things like face and eye detection and tracking, focusing aids in the viewfinder, etc; something that is not possible with purely optical viewfinders. You can also shoot through the LCD screen without loss of performance, as well as review images in the viewfinder if you're using the EVF - no need to switch between viewfinder and screen to review your shots.

I think the main difference between SLR's and P&S is the quality of the sensor and quality of the optics. Little cameras have little sensors. Little sensors require more amplification of the signal to make it useful. They also require chips to be smaller because of space constraints. This combination sacrifices pixel quality. Bigger cameras have bigger lenses (which fundamentally admit more light), larger pixels on a larger sensor that requires less amplification by better circuitry/chips.. The result is a lower noise ratio and better fidelity in terms of colors and contrast.

I'm not sure that most people understand this, which is why A) It's very hard to sell photography B) People run around with a sensor that is 1/4" and brag about the photos it takes and C) No matter how small you make the sensor or the optics, you can't reshape the physics of the amount of light being admitted and absorbed.

I seem to remember that I had lens motor issues on my Powershot G9 and that's why it went away...... after that I sold the housing and that is why I am where I am now, starting from scratch again on my photos. Because Ikelite's housings are explicit to each camera it didn't make sense to keep the G9 housing.

Those two paragraphs are in conflict with each other. 17-40mm on a full-frame is a wide-angle lens, something you'd use for reefscapes, schools of fish, large pelagics, wrecks, other divers, etc. For good optical performance, it needs a large dome (Nauticam recommends 250mm), which precludes close-focus wide-angle. If you want to shoot small stuff with a Canon SLR, you need a macro lens, such as Canon 100m f/2.8 Macro USM, or a Sigma 70mm if you want something a bit wider.

Agreed - Everything is a compromise of some sort. The 17-40 is a good lens that I already own and like. It gives me a nice range for large macro (which is typically what I shoot) and whatever else I find interesting while I'm under water.

This really isn't a choice you can make; Ikelite has transitioned from FL to DL and all their new housings and ports use the DL system.

Used vs new. That's the choice. There is plenty of FL gear out there and Ikelite has not stopped supporting or making it. Buying a used housing and sending it in for service is much more affordable then buying a new one. If I was earning $$$$$$ from my photos it wouldn't be a debate, I'd buy new and move on. As a recreational diver who gets to dive a couple weeks a year and who likes photography... cost matters even if I don't have a hard budget. Meaning I can afford to buy whatever I want, but I can do another dive trip for the difference between used and new.

What I can't tease out is if the DL stuff is worth the premium. Is it just so much more fundamentally better that it's worth the substantial investment?

I use a Cinebags CB70 Square Grouper to carry everything; it's my aircraft carry-on now.


Absolutely, although Ikelite's system is kind of stupid. Get a Vivid Leak Sentinel with the proper adapter. I would not dive my housing without vacuum under any circumstances.

The Vivid Leak Sentinel is neat. No idea what the "command gland" is on the Ikelite housings. Really wish they would show some better photos.

The Ikelite system lacks a visual indicator, but it's otherwise a pretty solid system. I watched their video and I like what I see. The plug is a good sealing mechanism. The disadvantage is it's not setup for instant gratification. It's setup to be vacuumed in advance and allowed to sit in test mode. The success of the test is going to be dependent on the quality of the vacuum pump and hose, both of which don't appear to be high-grade tools. We are not pulling a deep vacuum, so I don't know that it matters.

I would rather see the sensor be independent and inside the housing completely as opposed to being yet another port. That's one of the things I like about Ikelite's system. Once you disconnect the pump you plug the hole and the physics work in your favor.

Thank you for the detailed responses and hopefully our conversation will help others having the same considerations.

 

[Barmaglot]

I think the main difference between SLR's and P&S is the quality of the sensor and quality of the optics. Little cameras have little sensors. Little sensors require more amplification of the signal to make it useful. They also require chips to be smaller because of space constraints. This combination sacrifices pixel quality. Bigger cameras have bigger lenses (which fundamentally admit more light), larger pixels on a larger sensor that requires less amplification by better circuitry/chips.. The result is a lower noise ratio and better fidelity in terms of colors and contrast.

I think you'd be hard pressed to distinguish between a photo taken with a modern 1" sensor compact such as an RX100 VA or VII, or a Canon G7 X Mark III (which uses the same Sony sensor, but without PDAF), and a mid-range full-frame camera. Yes, the full-frame cameras can gather more light when shooting in dim environments, and thus exhibit greater dynamic range and less noise - but underwater, we shoot with strobes anyway, so high-ISO performance is meaningless. Conversely, smaller cameras don't need as much magnification when shooting macro, and thus get greater depth of field. Since you don't stop down as much, you can get away with less powerful strobes as well. Another advantage of fixed-lens compacts is strobe sync speed - interchangeable lens cameras typically sync at up to 1/250-1/320, sometimes at 1/160 or less, whereas compacts with leaf shutters can go all the way to 1/2000-1/4000.

 

[nanohawk]

I think you'd be hard pressed to distinguish between a photo taken with a modern 1" sensor compact such as an RX100 VA or VII, or a Canon G7 X Mark III (which uses the same Sony sensor, but without PDAF), and a mid-range full-frame camera. Yes, the full-frame cameras can gather more light when shooting in dim environments, and thus exhibit greater dynamic range and less noise - but underwater, we shoot with strobes anyway, so high-ISO performance is meaningless. Conversely, smaller cameras don't need as much magnification when shooting macro, and thus get greater depth of field. Since you don't stop down as much, you can get away with less powerful strobes as well. Another advantage of fixed-lens compacts is strobe sync speed - interchangeable lens cameras typically sync at up to 1/250-1/320, sometimes at 1/160 or less, whereas compacts with leaf shutters can go all the way to 1/2000-1/4000.

All good points. I have shot without strobes because I find the light conditions are fine in 30 to 40 feet of water or less. That is the area that I tend to enjoy the most.

first photo..... shot with my Canon Powershot G9 in a Ikelite housing.... a while back. This was in Cozumel. I use it as a screen background and enjoy it. Pretty sure this one had a red filter on it and was color corrected in lightroom, but it's been a very long time since it was taken.

Second I took because I liked the tubular anemone with the purple tips and eventually want one in my saltwater aquarium when I get around to getting that back up and running again. Assuming it's compatible with everything else I put in there... It's always good to remember that things in the ocean frequently do not play nice with other things in the ocean. It too is a background photo on my computer and I enjoy all the texture in the soft corals. Also Cozumel.

I toyed with buying the dome for Ikelite's G7Mk3 case to see if I could up the performance of the camera and open up the ability to do split shots.

These are good examples of what I like to photograph. I used to have more on Flickr but Flickr got expensive and aside from letting people steal your photos I didn't see the value in it.