Let's chat about DSLR vs Point and Shoot - looking for some wisdom / experience

[tarponchik]

This is second hand information, but from what I've been told, the G1X lens extends and retracts a lot while zooming, which makes wet lens attachment problematic.

Why is that? Shouldn't the camera's autofocus work anyway, distance to the subject permitting?

 

[Barmaglot]

Why is that? Shouldn't the camera's autofocus work anyway, distance to the subject permitting?

The camera lens front element needs to be as close as possible to the wet lens rear element. Otherwise, with wet wide lenses, you get vignetting, and with close-up lenses you lose magnification. You can counter vignetting by zooming in, but then you lose angle of view.

 

[tarponchik]

I'd add that though the difference in size and weight between Sony RX100 series and Sony A6000 series may seem significant, these are both still small compared to DSLRs. So if size matters, I'd go for the better quality of A6000s.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I like the head on shot, the narrow depth of field enhances the shot as long as the rhinophores are in focus.

Similarly with fish, as long as the eyes are in focus the shot looks good.

Yup I always focus on the eyes as well.

 

[Barmaglot]

I'd add that though the difference in size and weight between Sony RX100 series and Sony A6000 series may seem significant, these are both still small compared to DSLRs. So if size matters, I'd go for the better quality of A6000s.

There are actually some subtle pros and cons to both cameras, size notwithstanding. A6xxx series is limited to 1/160s flash sync speed, and while it's possible to overcome that by using HSS (high-speed sync), it's expensive - 2x€1,065 for a pair of Retra Pros, and another €259 for an s-TURTLE trigger to drive them - and you still lose considerable flash power when operating in this mode. This makes shooting into the sun difficult. Conversely, the RX100 series come with leaf shutters that sync with strobes all the way to 1/2000s.

On the other hand, RX100 cameras starting with M3 lack a hot shoe, which leaves the pop-up flash as the only method of triggering strobes. If you're shooting fast action, you may want to use bursts, and the pop-up flash prevents that. The only modern exception is the ZV-1, which replaces the EVF and flash with a hot shoe and microphone, but the only housing for that camera is from Ikelite.

When it comes to macro, all of these cameras come with their own limitations and trade-offs. The A6xxx series has access to four macro lenses - Sony 30mm, Sony-Zeiss 50mm, Sony FE 50mm and Sony FE 90mm. The 30mm is too short to function as a proper macro lens, the Sony-Zeiss 50mm only supports CDAF which makes its focus slow and unreliable, Sony FE 50mm has its own issues with speed and image quality, and while the Sony FE 90mm gives great IQ, it is somewhat tight on APS-C crop (135mm equivalent) and isn't a speed demon either. I use a Sony A6300 and my primary macro lens is actually a Canon EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM on a Metabones IV adapter, which works reasonably well, but it requires good light to lock focus - with a focus light, it is generally fast and reliable, but without a focus light, it tends to just hunt back and forth forever.

RX100 macro pros and cons depend on the model. Models III through VA (VA - five-A - is the guts of model VI in a model V body and lens) and ZV-1 come with a 24-70mm equivalent lens, which can be used for macro with a diopter, but is a bit short for the really tiny stuff - you won't be filling the frame with a squat shrimp, for an example. Models I and II are a bit better in this regard, with a 100mm equivalent lens on the long end (and, incidentally, 28mm on the wide end, which is the target FL of most wet lenses - the 24mm wide end that you get on newer models requires a touch of zoom on these to remove vignetting) but they're old and slow, with only contrast detection for focusing. Models VI and VII come with a 24-200mm equivalent lens, which is potentially capable of some really great macro - you can fill the frame with incredibly tiny stuff - but exploiting this capability is challenging. Not only is finding, focusing and framing these tiny critters difficult on the photographer, but you need a number of different strength diopters - a +15 lens will let you shoot a tiny subject, but not a slightly larger one for which you may need a +10 or even a +5, so you need to get good at managing those underwater.

Then there is the issue of viewfinders. Many underwater photographers absolutely swear by their 45-degree magnifying viewfinders. They make it possible to get the camera really low to the bottom for macro shots while hovering above it and still having unobstructed view through the lens, and they also make it easier to shoot at an upward angle in wide scenes without going through crazy contortions. For mirrorless users, as opposed to DSLR, they also make it possible to review shots right there in the viewfinder, without switching between viewfinder and the LCD screen. However, while RX100 models III through VII feature a pop-up EVF, no housing that I know of has a viewfinder mount that will access it. SeaFrogs Salted Line RX1xx has a built-in viewfinder, but I tried using the one on my A6xxx Salted Line housing, and it's complete garbage. If you're shooting an RX100 series camera underwater, you're doing it through the LCD screen. Best you can do to mimic an SLR/MILC viewfinder is a magnifying hood that attaches over the screen, something like this.

When it comes to video, A6xxx cameras do full-width sensor recording at 4K24P, but add a 1.2x crop at 4K30P. As far as I know, RX100V and upward shoot 4K without cropping, and they can do a short burst of slow-motion video up to 960fps

Both A6xxx and RX100 series can be shot as either flexible or dedicated wide/macro rigs. The Alpha cameras can use the 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 PZ lens, which works well with both wet wide lenses (WWL-1, WWL-C, KRL-1, UWL-09) and diopters, although the 75mm-equivalent long end won't get you into supermacro territory. The long lens of RX100 VI and VII presents some challenges with housings, but it boils down to choosing between a long port and a short one. In a long port, you can shoot the full range of zoom, but because the lens retracts deep inside the port on the wide end, you cannot utilize wet wide lenses, and 24mm behind flat port (which reduces AoV) is not particularly wide, so you're restricted to fish portraits and macro. In a short port, your zoom ability is restricted, compromising macro (but you can still shoot it about as well as an RX100V or an A6xxx with 16-50mm), but you can mount wet wide lenses for about 130 degrees of maximum AoV.

 

[nanohawk]

I spent some time looking at the TG-6 and it's quite impressive. One of my buddies told me to go look at the PEN E-PL10 and it's an interesting camera as well. Sigh. No simple decisions.

I think the TG-6 bumped the Sony RX-100 model whatever. The wins for the TG-6 are the microscope mode and the price point. It's an awful lot of camera for the $. I would like to see a vacuum system on the case and I'm not done doing my research.

I'm trying to quantify what the PEN E-PL10 would bring to the table and at what cost.

I think I've reached the point where I can let go of my Canon safety blanket. lol. I really have enjoyed my Canon gear... .but I think it's time for a change.. It's me not them. (satire intentional - enjoy a laugh).

 

[tursiops]

I would like to see a vacuum system on the case and I'm not done doing my research.

The Seafrogs case for the TG-6 has a vacuum system, but I don't recommend the housing...it is not that well made, and is a bit clunky. But I have one that is almost new if you want to have one.

 

[Searcaigh]

Nauticam also make a 100m housing for the TG6.

 

[tursiops]

Nauticam also make a 100m housing for the TG6.

I'm not sure it takes a vacuum system. I don't see a M14 or M16 port on the body....

 

[Barmaglot]

I think the TG-6 bumped the Sony RX-100 model whatever. The wins for the TG-6 are the microscope mode and the price point.

The main strength of the TG-6 is the easy and convenient access to macro - unlike most compacts, its lens is capable of very close focusing without add-on diopters, so you don't get the 'donut hole' where a subject is too small to shoot with a bare lens, but too big for your close-up lens.

The weaknesses of TG-6 are the lack of shutter speed controls - you can only shoot it in auto, program, or aperture priority mode - and middling wide-angle performance, even with add-on wet lenses. It also only has two apertures, f/2 and f/2.8, with f/8 achieved by a built-in ND filter - it will darken your background, but it will not modify your DoF.

I would like to see a vacuum system on the case and I'm not done doing my research.

As already mentioned, SeaFrogs housing for TG-6 has a vacuum port. However, if you look at SeaFrogs' instructions for their vacuum valve, they explicitly say to test it on land, then remove the valve and replace it with the port cap. This is not optimal, because you lose the pre-loading of the o-rings, and you have no way of testing whether the port cap has actually sealed. I dive with the VPS-100 attached, in defiance of SeaFrogs' instructions, but twice now, the valve has leaked during a dive, admitting a small amount of water into the housing and destroying the valve electronics. I'm currently on my third VPS-100 and waiting on the delivery of a Leak Sentinel V5.

That said, a housed TG-6 is a rare case where a vacuum valve is largely unnecessary. Even if your case leaks, the camera inside is waterproof, so you just come back, rinse and dry and you're good to go. It will take a really bad star alignment to have both the housing and the camera seals leak together.

I'm trying to quantify what the PEN E-PL10 would bring to the table and at what cost.

E-PL10 strengths are a larger sensor (although at the bottom end of what's available for ILCs), access to some quite nice micro four thirds lenses, and a very nice entry level housing made by AOI. Underwater, you can shoot it both like a compact, with the 14-42mm kit lens and wet lenses from AOI or other suppliers, or like an ILC, with fisheye, rectilinear ultrawide and macro lenses.
Its main weakness is the very dated 16MP sensor which lacks PDAF, so image quality will lag behind other ILCs and autofocus will be slow.

The cost for a full E-PL10 package with AOI housing, camera, lenses and strobes is somewhere in the $4000 to $6000 range, depending on what lenses and strobes you pick.