Legal considerations for the Fire on dive boat Conception in CA

[NAM001]

Who brought Jacque? If Frances paid for Jacques bunk, and is paying his salary, Jacque is not in service to the vessel even if he bakes some cookies for the rest of the passengers. This does not happen on US boats, as if Frances has too much dough, Jacque will cook on the yacht and the liveaboard will follow behind. That’s called buddy boating and is common.The DM provided by the shop is not in service to the vessel as long as they aren’t filling a manning requirement. For instance, many liveaboards in the US have 2 dive ladders, and a DM manning each one as divers come back. They are likely the deckhands.

If the shop uses its “free spot” (again, common in the US) for the shop DM who guides the dive, helps the customers with their cameras, and interfaces with the crew on the customers behalf, or maybe runs an advanced class, they are definitely not in service to the vessel and have no requirements for training, boat insurance, etc.

Some shops sell their free spot for extra profit. I didn’t like it, but I understood it.

Great explainaton wookie. This would have been handy to have in other threads concerning DM's showing only the AOW card when using a boat as a passenger. So many arguments regarding liability etc. Every time it happens the opposing arguers are viewing from different perspectives. In this case showing an AOW card makes it pretty clear as to what capacity the shops DM is fillng when he goes on board and the relationship tto the ship. Certainly there other considerations but if he remains true to only being there as a AOW theem he can not be expected to provide those ships services. Being in the water is a different matter If he is leading a group he may be considered as a DM by the services he is providing for the diver group or shop whether is is related or not to the boats provided services.

 

[NAM001]

If I may speak to this. If a person is used to fill a Manning requirement, they are crew with all that implies. Todd may be a volunteer, or working for tips, or being paid when on the Fling, but he is filling a deckhand position as required by the COI. Cooks and stewards may not be used to fill the deckhand or mate position, as they are not deck department, they are stewards department, and the Coast Guard is getting stickier about that.

So anyway, Todd the deckhand is crew regardless of compensation.

Fling (and Spree) also have a position that Todd sometimes works called “tank filler”. If Todd is the tank filler, he is not crew, his training requirements are not as rigid, but he is still “in service” to the vessel if the vessel brought him to fill tanks. Now, if the dive shop brought him to fill tanks (which was SOP in the early part of the century) than he is not in service to the vessel, but still has to meet DOT requirements for Fill station operator training. There used to be a folder in the chart room of the Fling that kept a record of all FSO’s trainee that year.

So it has a lot of ramifications as to what todd is doing and for whom. If todd is a divemaster filling a deckhand position, he is crew. If he is a tank filler brought in by the boat, he is still Jones Act qualified and the boat pays for his “workman’s comp” insurance. If he is a tank filler brought by the shop, he has no responsibilities to the vessel, except training.

Todd has filled all 3 positions for me, and I’m sure he has on the Fling.

After I moved to Florida, Todd would still visit. He would fill the tank filler position for a tip share. He was not crew (I had full time crew), he was trained (he had been trained for years, but we still renewed him), and had he been hurt, we would have covered his “maintenance and cure”, that is, we would have fixed him up to the best of our ability and paid him while he wasn’t working.

I say best of our ability, if todd lost a body part, that can’t well be fixed where we operated, so the insurance company would repair him best they could and settle with him for the missing thing.

very good explanation of the differences.

 

[ReefHound]

Great explainaton wookie. This would have been handy to have in other threads concerning DM's showing only the AOW card when using a boat as a passenger. So many arguments regarding liability etc. Every time it happens the opposing arguers are viewing from different perspectives. In this case showing an AOW card makes it pretty clear as to what capacity the shops DM is fillng when he goes on board and the relationship tto the ship. Certainly there other considerations but if he remains true to only being there as a AOW theem he can not be expected to provide those ships services. Being in the water is a different matter If he is leading a group he may be considered as a DM by the services he is providing for the diver group or shop whether is is related or not to the boats provided services.

I don't think it matters. We check for a valid OW or above card (and if applicable a valid nitrox card). We don't record which level of card was shown. We really don't care if you are a DM or instructor. And if there is an incident to the level that lawyers are involved, they are going to look up your full credentials anyway.

 

[Wookie]

I don't think it matters. We check for a valid OW or above card (and if applicable a valid nitrox card). We don't record which level of card was shown. We really don't care if you are a DM or instructor. And if there is an incident to the level that lawyers are involved, they are going to look up your full credentials anyway.

And deckhands do not need to be divemasters. I know of a Florida liveaboard that does not ever hire divemasters as their deckhands, so they do not have to provide liability insurance for them, which is expensive.

 

[NAM001]

I don't think it matters. We check for a valid OW or above card (and if applicable a valid nitrox card). We don't record which level of card was shown. We really don't care if you are a DM or instructor. And if there is an incident to the level that lawyers are involved, they are going to look up your full credentials anyway.

That was my point. 2 comments. I have always had to show my card and it was recorded what level of card was presented and what agency. and the issue of whether you are a DM or not has no bearing regarding the relationship between the boat and the DM. if they present a AOW card there is no confusion that the DM customer is not filling a DM position when it comes to whether they are acting s an employee of the boat or not. In the water it makes no differece,,,. A DM is a DM whether they show papers or not. A DM posing as a AOW still has the same responsibilities to render aid when needed no matter what card is shown. Many boats try to use the DM customer as additional boat DM's in the water to relieve their diver to DM ratio. If you give them a AOW card and they dont know you are a DM there is no misunderstanding of what the boat would expect from the DM becasue all they see is another AOW. Most times on boat trips the shop sponcering teh trip sends their own DM for the good of the shop divers. that DM is not an employee of the boat. Each state will determine the legal view of such a DM position and whether the boat is a taxi or not.

 

[ReefHound]

And deckhands do not need to be divemasters. I know of a Florida liveaboard that does not ever hire divemasters as their deckhands, so they do not have to provide liability insurance for them, which is expensive.

I'm not clear on what you are saying. Do they hire non-DM deckhands in addition to divemasters or do they not provide divemasters at all to divers? Do they tell the passengers there are no divemasters? I doubt there is any law about it but are insurers ok with a dive boat not providing a divemaster? Also, I have to provide my own DM liability policy so what is the purpose of that if the boat has to provide insurance?

 

[Wookie]

I'm not clear on what you are saying. Do they hire non-DM deckhands in addition to divemasters or do they not provide divemasters at all to divers? Do they tell the passengers there are no divemasters? I doubt there is any law about it but are insurers ok with a dive boat not providing a divemaster? Also, I have to provide my own DM liability policy so what is the purpose of that if the boat has to provide insurance?

The boat in question provides no divemasters. Their deckhands are not divemaster certified, and there is no person in service to the boat that is a DM except the Captain. I have no idea what they tell their passengers, but it isn't a secret.

Your (Fling) insurance (assuming Sharon uses the same insurance company we both did) requires the Master to be a supervisor of whatever type diving is being done, which is why I personally have a Technical Divemaster card, and why Ken didn't (or doesn't) take technical divers on the Fling. When we started running tech trips, I had to get a technical DM card.

As to why you have to provide your own insurance, it's because you DM other places. If Sharon asked the insurance company, they would provide you with a certificate of insurance, which PADI (assuming you are PADI) accepts, but it's only good when you are DMing on the Fling, not when you are at the Green Latrine with CHUM, etc.

Since most of my crew didn't do any scuba work except on the Spree, I got them insurance certificates. I already paid for it, so they might as well have the benefit of not having to buy another policy if they were just working the Spree.

Other folks boat insurance policies may vary. I am speaking about a very specific instance on a very specific boat.

 

[ReefHound]

That was my point. 2 comments. I have always had to show my card and it was recorded what level of card was presented and what agency.

Are you talking about dive boats in general or the Spree/Fling? On the Fling, we do not record what card you showed us. Whether or not we should is above my pay grade. There is an information box at end of waiver where you fill out a boatload of info among which is cert agency and level but we do not validate this information. I check waivers for initials, dates, and signatures. I check cards for name match and photo (if present) and nitrox level, if applicable.

 

[cerich]

Are you talking about dive boats in general or the Spree/Fling? On the Fling, we do not record what card you showed us. Whether or not we should is above my pay grade. There is an information box at end of waiver where you fill out a boatload of info among which is cert agency and level but we do not validate this information. I check waivers for initials, dates, and signatures. I check cards for name match and photo (if present) and nitrox level, if applicable.

given the stewart case, the low cost of digital storage now, having the c cards of all verified and stored is just a plain good idea. Just saying

 

[Wookie]

Are you talking about dive boats in general or the Spree/Fling? On the Fling, we do not record what card you showed us. Whether or not we should is above my pay grade. There is an information box at end of waiver where you fill out a boatload of info among which is cert agency and level but we do not validate this information. I check waivers for initials, dates, and signatures. I check cards for name match and photo (if present) and nitrox level, if applicable.

Company policy for Fling Spree when I ran the company was that as a customer you will never be in service to the boat. We will never provide a dive guide, and we will never ask you to buddy with someone. If you ask us to help you find a buddy, we would do our best to make an announcement that you need a buddy, but we will never intercede with someone on your behalf to find a buddy.

We weren't insured to make a customer guide a dive.