Legal considerations for the Fire on dive boat Conception in CA

[NickB-LA]

Yep, that part is completely understandable and in no way sinister. Some people put essentially every asset in trust for that reason.

Going to "third" this. It's just common sense.

 

[NAM001]

According to that maritime consortium:


Does regular crew require a license? I thought it was only the captain who needed one.

Edit: they cover that base sort of... the crewmember is required to participate. Still, the penalty for not participating seems to be revocation of a license that the person might not have. i.e. no penalty at all.. Surely I must be mistaken.

How do the DM's fit in this. are they not considered crew if they draw no pay. That is in conflict with many other areas that say if you provide the function with out pay you are an employee never the less for the purpose of the statute. Maritime rules may be different. And may very well explain why the DM's work for tips only. wink wink. Being a non employee would circumvent some of the regs. IS THIS POSSIBLE.

 

[NAM001]

As a DM, I don't have a "crew license" as far as I know but I'm pretty sure I'd never work this town again if I refused to be tested or failed the test.

That is possible but what wold the basis for asking you to take a test. If you are solely a DM you are a customer or a shop employee or independant and not part of the ships operation crew. Of course you could be part of a crew and also a DM.

 

[ReefHound]

That is possible but what wold the basis for asking you to take a test. If you are solely a DM you are a customer or a shop employee or independant and not part of the ships operation crew. Of course you could be part of a crew and also a DM.

Sorry I meant as a DM on the boat. I Dm and tankfill on the Fling and occasionally tankfilled on the Spree. I’ve taken an alcohol strip test every time CG has had to fly out even non-fatality. I’ve never taken a sip offshore so it doesn’t bother me at all. I always figured refusing would just put me under scrutiny.

 

[Wookie]

How do the DM's fit in this. are they not considered crew if they draw no pay. That is in conflict with many other areas that say if you provide the function with out pay you are an employee never the less for the purpose of the statute. Maritime rules may be different. And may very well explain why the DM's work for tips only. wink wink. Being a non employee would circumvent some of the regs. IS THIS POSSIBLE.

If I may speak to this. If a person is used to fill a Manning requirement, they are crew with all that implies. Todd may be a volunteer, or working for tips, or being paid when on the Fling, but he is filling a deckhand position as required by the COI. Cooks and stewards may not be used to fill the deckhand or mate position, as they are not deck department, they are stewards department, and the Coast Guard is getting stickier about that.

So anyway, Todd the deckhand is crew regardless of compensation.

Fling (and Spree) also have a position that Todd sometimes works called “tank filler”. If Todd is the tank filler, he is not crew, his training requirements are not as rigid, but he is still “in service” to the vessel if the vessel brought him to fill tanks. Now, if the dive shop brought him to fill tanks (which was SOP in the early part of the century) than he is not in service to the vessel, but still has to meet DOT requirements for Fill station operator training. There used to be a folder in the chart room of the Fling that kept a record of all FSO’s trainee that year.

So it has a lot of ramifications as to what todd is doing and for whom. If todd is a divemaster filling a deckhand position, he is crew. If he is a tank filler brought in by the boat, he is still Jones Act qualified and the boat pays for his “workman’s comp” insurance. If he is a tank filler brought by the shop, he has no responsibilities to the vessel, except training.

Todd has filled all 3 positions for me, and I’m sure he has on the Fling.

After I moved to Florida, Todd would still visit. He would fill the tank filler position for a tip share. He was not crew (I had full time crew), he was trained (he had been trained for years, but we still renewed him), and had he been hurt, we would have covered his “maintenance and cure”, that is, we would have fixed him up to the best of our ability and paid him while he wasn’t working.

I say best of our ability, if todd lost a body part, that can’t well be fixed where we operated, so the insurance company would repair him best they could and settle with him for the missing thing.

 

[JohnnyC]

If I may speak to this. If a person is used to fill a Manning requirement, they are crew with all that implies. Todd may be a volunteer, or working for tips, or being paid when on the Fling, but he is filling a deckhand position as required by the COI. Cooks and stewards may not be used to fill the deckhand or mate position, as they are not deck department, they are stewards department, and the Coast Guard is getting stickier about that.

So anyway, Todd the deckhand is crew regardless of compensation.

Fling (and Spree) also have a position that Todd sometimes works called “tank filler”. If Todd is the tank filler, he is not crew, his training requirements are not as rigid, but he is still “in service” to the vessel if the vessel brought him to fill tanks. Now, if the dive shop brought him to fill tanks (which was SOP in the early part of the century) than he is not in service to the vessel, but still has to meet DOT requirements for Fill station operator training. There used to be a folder in the chart room of the Fling that kept a record of all FSO’s trainee that year.

So it has a lot of ramifications as to what todd is doing and for whom. If todd is a divemaster filling a deckhand position, he is crew. If he is a tank filler brought in by the boat, he is still Jones Act qualified and the boat pays for his “workman’s comp” insurance. If he is a tank filler brought by the shop, he has no responsibilities to the vessel, except training.

Todd has filled all 3 positions for me, and I’m sure he has on the Fling.

Is this distinction true for anybody brought on board that is not "in service to the vessel?"

For example, a DM provided by the shop, or a private cook because Frances has too much money only lets Jacques blanch her kale, they are not providing their services as a crew member, despite the fact they may be "working" on the boat? Provided they are not working directly "in service" for the boat, their status requires no responsibility to the vessel. Am I assuming correctly?

 

[Wookie]

Is this distinction true for anybody brought on board that is not "in service to the vessel?"

For example, a DM provided by the shop, or a private cook because Frances has too much money only lets Jacques blanch her kale, they are not providing their services as a crew member, despite the fact they may be "working" on the boat? Provided they are not working directly "in service" for the boat, their status requires no responsibility to the vessel. Am I assuming correctly?

Who brought Jacque? If Frances paid for Jacques bunk, and is paying his salary, Jacque is not in service to the vessel even if he bakes some cookies for the rest of the passengers. This does not happen on US boats, as if Frances has too much dough, Jacque will cook on the yacht and the liveaboard will follow behind. That’s called buddy boating and is common.The DM provided by the shop is not in service to the vessel as long as they aren’t filling a manning requirement. For instance, many liveaboards in the US have 2 dive ladders, and a DM manning each one as divers come back. They are likely the deckhands.

If the shop uses its “free spot” (again, common in the US) for the shop DM who guides the dive, helps the customers with their cameras, and interfaces with the crew on the customers behalf, or maybe runs an advanced class, they are definitely not in service to the vessel and have no requirements for training, boat insurance, etc.

Some shops sell their free spot for extra profit. I didn’t like it, but I understood it.

 

[JohnnyC]

Who brought Jacque? If Frances paid for Jacques bunk, and is paying his salary, Jacque is not in service to the vessel even if he bakes some cookies for the rest of the passengers. This does not happen on US boats, as if Frances has too much dough, Jacque will cook on the yacht and the liveaboard will follow behind. That’s called buddy boating and is common.The DM provided by the shop is not in service to the vessel as long as they aren’t filling a manning requirement. For instance, many liveaboards in the US have 2 dive ladders, and a DM manning each one as divers come back. They are likely the deckhands.

If the shop uses its “free spot” (again, common in the US) for the shop DM who guides the dive, helps the customers with their cameras, and interfaces with the crew on the customers behalf, or maybe runs an advanced class, they are definitely not in service to the vessel and have no requirements for training, boat insurance, etc.

Some shops sell their free spot for extra profit. I didn’t like it, but I understood it.

Makes perfect sense, thanks!

If I ever get tired of hanging heavy stuff around the world, I wanna come work for you. I’ll even ::shudder:: renew my PADI Pro account....

 

[Wookie]

Makes perfect sense, thanks!

If I ever get tired of hanging heavy stuff around the world, I wanna come work for you. I’ll even ::shudder:: renew my PADI Pro account....

I sold the boat 3 years ago, I’m back working for the Navy...

 

[JohnnyC]

I sold the boat 3 years ago, I’m back working for the Navy...

I know. And I can’t imagine it’s nearly as much fun as dealing with recreational divers!!!!