LDS Scare Tactics?

[UGA]

I hate to say it, but I am also almost universally skeptical of LDS's. I say this after knowingly spending about $400 more on a reg last month from an LDS than I know I could have gotten online, not because of any warranty issues, but because I wanted to support the LDS. Still, they tried to rip me off (oh, they forgot to give me the discount, they said) but I caught it, and then gave me the wrong equipment (caught that also).

I've had similar experiences with other shops. I realize they need to make money. Obviously, I know that they can't offer prices matching the online retailers and still be profitable, and like I said I'm willing to spend more money with them to get the service and support that comes with an LDS, not to mention the opportunity for trips and classes they offer.

But when they clearly attempt to deceive me (and have almost certainly successfully deceived others who weren't astute enough to have done research and read this message board and know what's going on), I don't think they deserve my business. And it is unfortunate for them, because I frankly probably would have spent a lot of money there.

To echo the sentiments of someone else here, the LDS's I've encountered could benefit greatly from some business management instruction.

I really wanted to trust this latest shop because it is fairly well known in the Atlanta area (especially after my bad experiences with other shops) but I was once again disappointed.

 

[MasterGoa]

I have a question on this issue.

What is an internet purchase?

I buy over the internet from a reputable DS that
has a store and are autherised dealer for the products they sell.
I just have them shipped to me instead of driving there.
It is, however, a 2500KM drive

So is internet purchases from "warehouse" type
shops only?

How come Aqualung does NOT police themselves
where their stuff goes?

If my local LDS has a website and I order and then pick up myself, is this
an internet purchase?

Also, my "Internet" diving shop, pending cost of postage,
applies all the "free lifetime service" service.

So basically, for 10$ shipping, they fully rebuild my regs every year.

So no, they are not local, but yeas, service is top notch all the way.


Where is the line?

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Personally, when they come in for service, I can't tell the difference between a used reg bought from Leisure Pro and a used reg of the same model that was sold through an authorized dealer but is owned by other than the original owner. If there is no warranty paperwork, you can't tell.

If a shop owner treats the second owner of an authorized reg badly on the assumption it was an internet purchase, he or she is essentially killing the resale value of the new regs he or she is selling as, if service cannot be obtained and/or obtained at a reasonable cost, the reg is not worth much making it much more expensive for the original owner to upgrade.

Unfortunately, depsite the fact that Scubapro and Aqualung regs are virtually definitive durable goods products, many shops refused to deal in used regs or offer trade in allowances and instead prefer to insist that customers can just buy new regs and/or are beter off buying new regs rather than what they (incoirrectly) imply is old, outdated or unsafe used gear. This is not a business model that is freindly to customers at any level.

Used regs provide LDS owners a low cost option to get new divers into the sport (ie: addicted) with minimal investment and develops a customer relationship that goes a long way toward ensuring the customer will come back in to trade off the reg and upgrade to a new one later. The trade in allowance itself also gives the LDS owner a way to legitamately increase the discount he/she can give on price controlled items.

But in my experience many LDS owners buy into the anti-internet, anti-used gear indoctrination pushed by sales reps who are only concerned with pushing new company product rather than with the health and well being of the LDS owner and his business. It leads to the mentality that LDS owners have some sort of corner on the market or a divine right to just sit on the moral high ground. This gets reflected in stupid comments like:

1. "Let them buy on-line, and when we go out of busuness they can get on-line air fills as well" - this ignores the obvious that by the time the consequence is put in effect , the LDS will be out of business and is not going to benefit from any learning that may occur in the customer base as a result of the consequence imposed on the customer.

2. "If they want to buy off e-bay or on-line, fine, but we won't service their gear". - This ignores the fact that many customers are concerned with price point issues and/or are just plain cash strapped with the total outlay required to buy their way into what is a very equipment intensive sport. The price point concern is especially true in an industry that they regard as one that provides poor service. Intentionally providing poor service to customers as a means of punishing them for buying decisions based on their perception that you provide poor service is obviously a seriously flawed business strategy.

What I see is that the dumber LDS owners will continue doing business this way placing their faith in MSRP price controls (enforced by companies that are unwilling to stop grey market sales) and the belief in the benefits of the larger margin of new equipment sales without regard to the fact they are selling to an ever shrinking customer base.

When they eventually go out of business, they will blame internet sales, e-bay, scuba manufacturer price ocntrols, etc, and never acknowledge their own culpability in their demise through their failure to recognize the wants and needs of the customers and creativily working within the existing limitations to meet those needs and capitalize on the advantages they hold over on-line dealers - service, freindly face to face interactions, and the ability to develop personal relationships with customers.

 

[JungleJoe]

Very well said......... !

You basically took what I was trying to say earlier in this thread and really explained it well.

Kudo's on a great post !

 

[cerich]

Personally, when they come in for service, I can't tell the difference between a used reg bought from Leisure Pro and a used reg of the same model that was sold through an authorized dealer but is owned by other than the original owner. If there is no warranty paperwork, you can't tell.

If a shop owner treats the second owner of an authorized reg badly on the assumption it was an internet purchase, he or she is essentially killing the resale value of the new regs he or she is selling as, if service cannot be obtained and/or obtained at a reasonable cost, the reg is not worth much making it much more expensive for the original owner to upgrade.

Unfortunately, depsite the fact that Scubapro and Aqualung regs are virtually definitive durable goods products, many shops refused to deal in used regs or offer trade in allowances and instead prefer to insist that customers can just buy new regs and/or are beter off buying new regs rather than what they (incoirrectly) imply is old, outdated or unsafe used gear. This is not a business model that is freindly to customers at any level.

Used regs provide LDS owners a low cost option to get new divers into the sport (ie: addicted) with minimal investment and develops a customer relationship that goes a long way toward ensuring the customer will come back in to trade off the reg and upgrade to a new one later. The trade in allowance itself also gives the LDS owner a way to legitamately increase the discount he/she can give on price controlled items.

But in my experience many LDS owners buy into the anti-internet, anti-used gear indoctrination pushed by sales reps who are only concerned with pushing new company product rather than with the health and well being of the LDS owner and his business. It leads to the mentality that LDS owners have some sort of corner on the market or a divine right to just sit on the moral high ground. This gets reflected in stupid comments like:

1. "Let them buy on-line, and when we go out of busuness they can get on-line air fills as well" - this ignores the obvious that by the time the consequence is put in effect , the LDS will be out of business and is not going to benefit from any learning that may occur in the customer base as a result of the consequence imposed on the customer.

2. "If they want to buy off e-bay or on-line, fine, but we won't service their gear". - This ignores the fact that many customers are concerned with price point issues and/or are just plain cash strapped with the total outlay required to buy their way into what is a very equipment intensive sport. The price point concern is especially true in an industry that they regard as one that provides poor service. Intentionally providing poor service to customers as a means of punishing them for buying decisions based on their perception that you provide poor service is obviously a seriously flawed business strategy.

What I see is that the dumber LDS owners will continue doing business this way placing their faith in MSRP price controls (enforced by companies that are unwilling to stop grey market sales) and the belief in the benefits of the larger margin of new equipment sales without regard to the fact they are selling to an ever shrinking customer base.

When they eventually go out of business, they will blame internet sales, e-bay, scuba manufacturer price ocntrols, etc, and never acknowledge their own culpability in their demise through their failure to recognize the wants and needs of the customers and creativily working within the existing limitations to meet those needs and capitalize on the advantages they hold over on-line dealers - service, freindly face to face interactions, and the ability to develop personal relationships with customers.

Good post. Not all of us reps are as you describe above however.

 

[OrlandoRanger]

so I guess my LDS is a rarity... Sometimes they can't match or beat internet pricing but they will go as low as they can and then offer discounts on classes and or other products they can go low on.. Plus they are just nice ppl in general.. C & N Divers in Mt. Dora, Florida. Been around since 1990 and I can understand why now.

 

[CrazyScuba]

It amazes me that some shops would take that negative attitude. We take trade-ins and work great deals for our customers whenever we can. We have also gone online to grow our business model, but have not given up on our local customers and insist upon continuing our tradition of great customer service. Hopefully more and more LDS's will see that customer service AND pricing/value need to go hand in hand.

Britt :fish:
:fish:

 

[rookers]

LDS's are experiencing a shift in the business model with the advent of on-line sales and a consequent highly expanded used market. Some are going to swing with it, and some are going to get all Luddite about it. I deal with 3LDS's, am somewhat loyal to two, and buy at least half my stuff online with a split between used and new. None of my regulators came from an LDS, but my upcoming drysuit definitely will. I think I pretty accurately reflect the split in the market with the more experienced non-professional folk who do not get the sweet 'pro' deals being willing to take a shot at online and used while the very new and less comfortable will do well to have a guided money-transfering experience. Damned expensive hobby it is, too.

 

[Homunculus]

as a new diver i also had to deal with the same dilemma - online vs. lds. I've had a lot of experience with online purchasing (including e-bay) in general and in my opinion online purchasing is a best way to save money if proper research is done prior to transaction.

So far, i've been buying diving equipment (that is on the expensive side) online since the price difference is quite significant. The reg that I bought for $430 can start from $650 and up in lds (poseidon xstream). I have the outmost respect for small businesses but when the difference in price can reach more that $100, i'd go with online. When my income is higher i'd support a good lds.

By the way, it's actually worth to call the manufacturer and ask about the warranty before buying anything expensive online (mentioning the point of sale can help as some manufacturers/distributors don't like certain online businesses). With regulator servicing, you want to find someone you can trust and often those people are not even in your state, so you ship your reg somewhere else, in that case LDS is irrelevant.

i buy small things in LDS (mask, fins, boots, etc) as well as renting the equipment from them (until i buy everything - can't wait) so that they know my face.