Kudos to the Ginnie Staff

[Soggy]

yaddda yadda yadda... we've already gone through this argument like three times...

Yeah, and you're wrong every time we go through it because you keep forgetting that you get to keep half your gas with the doubles, which you should know since you opened a whole thread about the purpose of an isolation manifold. That, combined with the fact that we'd be diving 1/6ths at the intro level, not 1/3rds!

 

[Soggy]

there is a MUCH GREATER danger which is for students to over-step their
training and ability in doubles and not be able to get themselves out.

That might be true if it weren't equally possible to go twice as far on a single tank. You keep ignoring that discussion, too.

 

[H2Andy]

That, combined with the fact that we'd be diving 1/6ths at the intro level, not 1/3rds!

and yet, students wearing doubles have DIED at the intro level. whereas, intro students wearing singles have NOT died.

think about that for a second, will ya?

what on earth could that possibly mean? you have students WITH MORE AIR
and REDUNDANT CYLINDERS dying.... hmmm.....

but students with LESS AIR and single cylinders are not dying... hmmmm....

:33:

what seems to be more dangerous to cave divers with limited skills and experience?

 

[brianstclair]

Yeah, and you're wrong every time we go through it because you keep forgetting that you get to keep half your gas with the doubles, which you should know since you opened a whole thread about the purpose of an isolation manifold. That, combined with the fact that we'd be diving 1/6ths at the intro level, not 1/3rds!

Curious, what is your rebuttal to the fact (assuming it is true - I don't know one way or the other) that there are zero fatalities involving intro divers with singles and several involving doubles? There's SOMETHING going on there that's keeping people alive, or at least failing to kill them.

Brian

 

[Soggy]

Curious, what is your rebuttal to the fact (assuming it is true - I don't know one way or the other) that there are zero fatalities involving intro divers with singles and several involving doubles? There's SOMETHING going on there that's keeping people alive, or at least failing to kill them.
Brian

Without seeing the accident descriptions, I couldn't tell you. My guess about why the doubles divers have died is that they were doing stupid things that they shouldn't be, which is not a problem addressed by changing the tanks on your back. Not one person has actually cited any sources, so I don't know if it is true or not. Conversely, I have provided solid math and situations where a single tank would be a dangerous gear choice. With the exception of karstdvr, it also appears that none of the single tank supporters in this thread, even those at Intro level, are actually putting their money where their mouths are and are, in fact, diving doubles, presumably because they believe them to be safer.

My guess as to why single tank divers have not died is because there just aren't very many people diving singles in caves. I sure didn't see any last weekend. Fewer people diving, fewer people dying.

This is all conjecture, however.

Let me pose this question....

Assuming that all intro divers were smart enough not to violate training standards, which would be a safer configuration?

 

[H2Andy]

1. if doubles users died from doing "something stupid" and it had nothing to do
with their doubles, then wearing doubles didn't buy them any extra safety.
your argument that it's safer to dive doubles does not hold up.

also, think about the possiblity that having all that extra gas is what allowed
them to get cokcy and try "something stupid," cause they felt safe and
sure that their doubles would get them out of trouble. in that respect, the double
tanks might have led directly to their deaths.

2. let's assume that there has to be at least 1,000 single-tank dives in the
last 20 years. if single tanks blew up on you at a 1% rate, you'd expect 10
dead divers in the last 20 years. there's not a one. your argument that
diving single tanks is less safe does not hold up.

let's assume that there are 500 single-tank dives per year for the past 20
years. that's 10,000 dives. if 1/10th of one percent of all single tanks
blew up on you, you'd still see 10 dead divers.

and yet, there are none... single... zilch... zero... nada...

single tanks can't be inherently more dangerous for this population
of divers (new cave divers with limited skill sets). neither logic
nor the mortality rates support your claim.

 

[Soggy]

I edited my post and added a bunch to it. Please reread it.

 

[WaterDawg]

apart from this site http://www.iucrr.org/aa.htm where else could I look cave deaths up? Also the report say that more (30x more) "Full cave cert divers" have died than cavern divers, And I know that there are cavern divers that go past the daylight zone. Heck, maybe its the doubles?

 

[brianstclair]

With the exception of karstdvr, it also appears that none of the single tank supporters in this thread, even those at Intro level, are actually putting their money where their mouths are and are, in fact, diving doubles, presumably because they believe them to be safer.

FWIW, I and several of my buddies are all currently intro certified, and we're all diving fairly regularly on single tanks. I understand your logic. It's sound. And yet, if we accept the claim that there are NO single tank, intro diver fatalities... A perfect safety record is hard to argue against. And I'm not saying that it's the single tank in and of itself that apparently makes those dives safer, but something about the gear configuration is either safe, or is causing people to dive safer.

Brian

 

[H2Andy]

Heck, maybe its the doubles?

of course it is. going deeper into the system and further from the exit
is inherently more dangerous.

but something about the gear configuration is either safe, or is causing people to dive safer.

absolutely. and that something is the inherent limitation in dive time and range
that a single tank provides. by spending less time in the cave, and by spending
that time in the more accessible parts of the cave, you are cutting down
significantly on your risk.

i also dove on singles for a while, as a Cavern and as an Intro. diver.
i can tell you, i NEVER exceeded thirds. ever. ever. no way.

on doubles... well... hmmm... i have gas, right? so... hmmm...