Kicked out of Nitrox Class!!

[metridium]

Northeastwrecks wrote...
There's no question that we pay more for the service. However, I'd rather pay more for a premium service than spend my time kvetching about my awful LDS.

Nice...if you have the option. Whether due to economics or limited LDS options, many (most?) don't.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

metridium once bubbled...
Nice...if you have the option. Whether due to economics or limited LDS options, many (most?) don't.

Your point is well taken. I recognize that, sometimes, economics require compromises. That's why I don't drive a Porsche.

On the other issue, does buying online improve the customer service at the LDS?

If it doesn't, what would? I'd respectfully suggest that it isn't a howling madman with a website and an attitude. Instead, perhaps what it takes is a few dive buddies arriving at the shop at the same time and laying it on the line. We'll support you if you support us. We want brands A, B and C and we want better service. If you do this, we'll be here. Otherwise, we'll be elsewhere.

 

[Pez de Diablo]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


For open water it's probably the best bet. But I was really talking about the one that starts with a G and ends with a UE.

;-)

Darn, I was sure you meant TDI when you made refference to tech training.

I would really like to hear the LDS version on this one.

 

[AggieDiver]

FWIW I agree that litigation isn't the answer...

That being said, the reason I think a nitrox class is a product is how most shops market it. They tell you you watch a video, spend 6 hours in class going over material, you do your two dives (PADI doesn't even require the insturctor to be in the water for these dives so there is no "training" going on), and you get your card. They sell it as a package...yes they would offer remedial work if necessary, but they market it as a package deal. I am in a service industry (environmental consulting) and we offer two kinds of services, one that I consider a product, and one that I consider a service. When I agree to to a Phase I Environmental Site Assessment of a property (usually a requirement to get a loan on commercial real estate), I quote a lump sum price that includes a pre-set package of information and a set number of my hours to prepare a report. This is a product. If they ask for more than the "package", it will usually cost them more. When I do other kinds of investigations, we quote a time and materials price with an estimate of our hours and equipment along with hourly or daily rates. That to me is a service. Since most LDS courses are quoted with "package" rates, I could make a strong argument that they are selling goods. I might lose on the letter of the law, but I would argue that I am correct on "intent" of the law.

The end result is that we both agree...the LDS is being stupid. At some point, I think we in the diving community need to find a way for people who aren't gifted with a slew of LDS options to still be able to get reasonable service and prices without risking forfeiting their right to be trained or to have warranties on their gear. I understand the economic pressure to sell gear and the desire by the manufacturer to have only trained people to do maintenance on their equipment, but sanctioning abusive behavior in the name of "LDS economics" is something I would hope no manufacturer or training agency wants to be a part of.

On the other hand, if he did want to sue, he could demand an hourly rate for his lost time and probably cost the shop more in legal fees defending their waste of his time (even if they won) than they would have made selling him the gear.

AggieDiver

 

[Cave Diver]

Pez de Diablo once bubbled...
I would really like to hear the LDS version on this one.

So would I.

Rick, did the LDS give you any indication of partipation when you called them?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...
The answer is that the LDSs have likely collectively pressured the manufacturers to adopt these policies.

They're the ones that want it, but only if ALL have to live by it, of course.....

It takes nothing more than Occam's Razor to figure this out...

Thus, guess where your ire should be directed......

This may be true in part but if it is it was many years ago. Way before my time in the business. I'm sure some of the old timmers are still all for it.

 

[Wyno]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
While I don't disagree that there are less expensive sources of gear, I wonder how much you lose in terms of convenience and how much cash you spend on other items.

I buy 99% of my gear from my LDS. The 1% I don't get there is because its specialty gear for which there is almost no market (all graphite pencils, a custom computer strap).

...............

As a shop AI, I don't pay for gas, including technical mixes with high O2. I also have access to the fill station pretty much around the clock. I also have an account and can sign for items even when the shop is closed. In exchange, the LDS prefers that I use their equipment, although they don't require it.

Even customers who are not on staff do well at this shop. The LDS has (1) added product lines when we requested them (DUI and Halcyon are the most recent); (2) a long standing 100 day return policy on gear; (3) awarded credits against class costs if you buy your equipment there.

Finally, the LDS provides perks to regular customers. Buy your entire rig and the LDS will throw in some accessories, in addition to giving you a volume discount. Buy a drysuit and get a class on its use. I offer my EFR students very nice first aid kits for cost when they complete the course.

The final benefit is that I can dive much more regularly than I would if I were not using the shop. I'm a member of a regular dive team that operates out of that shop. No buddy horror stories, no other problems and a great group of people that uses the back room of the shop as a clubhouse when we are not teaching. We travel together and have great luck with dive operations because we take over all or most of the boat.

We get this type of service because we support the LDS.

There's no question that we pay more for the service. However, I'd rather pay more for a premium service than spend my time kvetching about my awful LDS.

Besides, I figure that, between air fills, free samples, fast repairs, discounts, training, etc..., I've made out fairly well. It all contributes to stress free diving, which is far more valuable than the money I'd save shopping my business.

It's easy to be loyal when you get perks the way you do.

I would guess that most LDS are not like the one you go to. We have five LDS in my area and none treat us the way yours does and some know less about dive equipment then I do and I'm new to diving.

 

[Scubatooth]

well i hope this LDS gets the email i sent them because this problem has now been posted on a couple of other boards, and i also told them that they are being hypocrites for doing this to a student when they sell online to.


well after looking at this lds online site i wouldnt buy from them because there prices for items are above others in the DFW area.

 

[redacted]

Wyno once bubbled...



It's easy to be loyal when you get perks the way you do.

I would guess that most LDS are not like the one you go to. We have five LDS in my area and none treat us the way yours does and some know less about dive equipment then I do and I'm new to diving.

NEW indicated in a previous thread that he also provides his LDS with some legal services. Not only does it sound like one of the better LDSs but he has got to be a rather unique customer. I don't think he is really suggesting that you or I or any other just-another-customer could expect those same perks.

 

[MikeFerrara]

bwerb once bubbled...
So, what is to stop a LDS from doing the same "grey-market" purchasing and pricing of an on-line retailer but offering it in their shops. If the market is so bizarre being an "authorized dealer" then why not pick and chose what you want to carry as an "unauthorized dealer"? If you combined the fantastic service and the on-line pricing (which in many cases seems to be pricing which is simply not bound by the price restricting structure of the manufacturers).

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is this...if the "on-line" retailers have changed the rules of the game to suit their business models, what prevents the local LDS from changing the rules in a similar manner themselves. You'd think if enough shops stopped playing the game, eventually the business practices would be forced to change.

I've also never understood manufacturer's price "fixing" and discount structures at retail...they get paid the same regardless of what the retail is. If someone wants to sell for $5 more than what it cost them...why stop them. If someone wants to double or triple their profit margins...go ahead. Since manufacturer's care about volume, you'd think the more they sold the better. Let the market decide what an item is worth.

Some good questions. The reasons we don't grey market are first, we don't heve the sources. Show me where I can get a reliable source of product x in the quantities I can buy and the parts/service documentation to support the product and I'll shred my dealer agreements before the end of business today. On the other hand if I could go out and spend a million dollars filling a warehouse with stock I could offer that product while the supply lasted. When it was gone I would just replace it with whatever I could get at that time.

The other issue is support. If I had a warehouse of regs I could just replace your defective one and eat the cost if I couldn't fix it. If, though, I can only afford to buy 10 and I sold them all and my source drys up then I can't do anything for you if you have a problem.

The scheme doesn't work in anything but huge volumes.

I just got an e-mail yesterday about a recall on Zeagle regulators. I wonder if LP got that e-mail. I wonder if they know what to do about the problem. I wonder if they can get the parts to fix it.

The other thing you need to look at is that a business like LP is totally different business. If I could buy and sell large volumes of any product why would I assume the risk, labor and overhead associated with fills or teaching. There's little profit in those things other than the fact that they sell gear.

I'm not dealing with large volumes but for the last couple of months almost all out sales have been by phone or e-mail. Why on earth would I want to get up from the computer to go fill a tank when all it does is put hours on my machine, expose me to risk. how many e-mail orders can I handle in the time it takes me to fill a tank and engage in small talk with some one who isn't goint to ever buy anything that has a margin associated with it? Sevice a reg...why? ...if in the same time I can sell 20 at the computer. In fact if I could get and sell product without having a shop, why would I even have one at all. I could eliminate rent, insurance, security and utility cost right off the top.

If we seperate gear sales from classes, fills and service..then OW classes will be $1000 if they are any good. That's what it needs to be to put any kind of real margin in it. Don't believe me? Price a trimix class. There is more time, overhead and risk in an OW class. Reg service will be $65/hour for labor with a minimum of $65 like at the GM dealer. Tank fills will go exclusively to large volume gas dealers like Bill R in Florida. You will get fills near dive sites only because there isn't any way a full time volume retailer will justify doing it. If all these services don't sell gear for a dive shop there just isn't any reason to provide them at all unless the fee goes up by orders of magnitude.

Right now divers have it good. You can still get cheap training and yet buy cheap gear online. This is only possible because shops are still trying. Once they realize the reality things will change. All the money you save over a lifetime of equipment purchases from LP will be eaten up if you only take one or two classes. Once the transition is over (and it may be years) you are goint to spend the money one way or the other.