Kicked out of Nitrox Class!!

[Northeastwrecks]

awap once bubbled...


NEW indicated in a previous thread that he also provides his LDS with some legal services. Not only does it sound like one of the better LDSs but he has got to be a rather unique customer. I don't think he is really suggesting that you or I or any other just-another-customer could expect those same perks.

My legal services are nominal. I get nothing more than the other AI's and DM's.

Sure, we get some perks that are not made available to everyone. Otherwise, what possible motivation would I have to get up at 4:30 in the morning on a weekend to help with classes. I could get up at 5:30 a.m. and go diving instead.

However, regular customer still get treated properly. In particular, they get (1) discounts for large purchases; (2) 100 day return policy; (3) credits against class costs when they buy gear; (4) often, free stuff when they buy something big; (5) great service, including free setups and fast repairs; and (6) training courses included when they buy certain types of gear, particularly including a drysuit. Remember, also, that the LDS did not bring in those new lines (Halcyon and DUI) simply to keep the small group of tech divers that form the bulk of the active instructional staff happy. The customers love it and keep buying it.

There is a very symbiotic relationship between this LDS and its customers. We all know that we could get some gear cheaper somewhere else. However, we choose not to because we wouldn't get the same level of service and, eventually, we'd be stuck when our guy had to cut back.

BTW, I was a regular customer for quite some time before I became a DM. I can attest to the fact that customers get these perks because I received them at that time.

 

[Scubamedicjoe]

man this is one of the most ap-pauling stories I have ever heard !!!!
first I would call padi, I think you will find out that she cant do that , also she could even loose her business license if you report this to the right person , did she have a sign ( right to refuse anyone posted anyway )!!!
second find out what brand of dive gear she sells and send them a certified letter , you be surprised at the response they will have too, this is ashame that even though you bought something some wear even on-line this isn't what the dive industry is about not only did she hurt you , the dive industry but when this gets out she will hurt herself more now than if she had let you done the class and more than likely would of bought something in future from her.

 

[Zagnut]

Zippy once bubbled...

Remember, when the internet drives the LDSs out of business the only place to get trained will be on line. Can't wait until I get my first on-line dive buddy.

The LDS isn't the only place to cet certified. Several Universities in Texas offer a semester long course in SCUBA.

 

[jonnythan]

Zagnut once bubbled...
Zippy once bubbled...


The LDS isn't the only place to cet certified. Several Universities in Texas offer a semester long course in SCUBA.

Not to mention the YMCA and GUE.

 

[Scuba Chip]

Look at it this way, You invested a couple of hours to find out just how stupid "Judy" really is. You don't want to learn from such a dummy anyway. If Judy had any brains she would have looked upon your class attendance as an opportunity to win over a NEW customer. Every business needs new customers. "Judy" obviously doesn't know how to cultivate new customers. You are better off without her. She the loser, not You

 

[WJL]

Just so people don't get any wrong ideas, the comments by Groundhog about this LDS violating the law by refusing to sell or by "tying" sales of classes to sales of gear, are just plain wrong.

As pointed out by NEW and others, a business can refuse to do business with anyone for any reason, as long as it's not an illegal reason. There are very few illegal reasons: basically they are reasons specifically banned by civil rights statutes prohibiting discrimination on the basis of race, creed, sex, national origin, etc. This shop did not violate any law by refusing to sell a class to this person. It is not necessarily illegal to engage in poor business practices. It is generally not even illegal to be stupid.

There is a doctrine in antitrust law which prohibits "tying" sales of one product (e.g. something scarce and desirable) to the purchase of another product (e.g. something ubiquitous and unwanted). This doctrine comes into play if, and only if, the seller has significant market power in the "tying" product. In simple terms, significant market power means something close to having a monopoly. The prohibited conduct occurs if a seller of some product which buyers want and can't get elsewhere (the "tying product"), requires the buyers to also buy something else that the buyers can easily get elsewhere (the "tied product"), usually at a lower price. There is no possible antitrust issue in this case unless this dive shop is the only source of dive training in the relevant geographic market, and we already know this is not the case both from the other posts in this thread, and from just plain old common sense.

(NEW - services can be products under antitrust doctrine, despite the fact that they do not meet the definition of goods under the UCC. See US Steel v. Fortner, 429 U.S. 610(1977)(sales of prefabricated homes allegedly tied to favorable financing services - case since discredited on other grounds)).

 

[Northeastwrecks]

WJL once bubbled...
(NEW - services can be products under antitrust doctrine, despite the fact that they do not meet the definition of goods under the UCC. See US Steel v. Fortner, 429 U.S. 610(1977)(sales of prefabricated homes allegedly tied to favorable financing services - case since discredited on other grounds)).

WJL, thanks for the cite.

I would seriously doubt that any LDS could ever be prosecuted under an antitrust statute, even if they were the only one in a particular geographic market. Competing products are always available on LP, DiveInn or some other site.

I'd also question whether tying is even applicable. Neither the training nor the product seem to be the type of products that qualify as either "scarce" or "commonly available".

Your post reminds me of cases in which tying was found. Many of them were patent cases in which the buyer was required to purchase non-patented products if they wanted to purchase the patented item or obtain a patent license.

This LDS isn't a monopolist; rather, it sounds like she's doing her best to foster competition through bad business practices.

 

[domino22]

scubaroyster once bubbled...
First post, just could not resist. Read this thread and guessed what shop this was before you posted the name of the shop and owner/instructor. I used to work for this shop for a very short time (3 mo). I got yelled at & screamed at for not selling enough. If you didn't teach class the way she wanted it, forget the finer points of learning the course skills, she got pi**ed. She made some of my students feel obligated to purchase from her, and I was pressured if they didn't. That's the way she operates, and hopefully the reason her business will fold, someday. If it wasn't for the doctors and airline pilots with disposable incomes greasing her palm with the credit cards, I'm sure she would already be gone.

Because of her personal problems; I don't work there anymore or do any business with her. Neither do about 20 or so former employees and customers who all enjoy a close relationship and have formed a non-shop affiliated scuba club. She forgets that forming a positive relationship with her customers yields a profitable customer network. Our club is all united in directing our contacts away from her shop.

Now I work for another Ft Worth dive shop where this isn't the case. We sell cheap instruction in "hope" to get the opportunity to sell you some gear. We discount everything as low as the manufacturer will allow. If you choose to buy gear elsewhere, we look for other opportunities to do more business with you. Repeated trips to the store still means some sales. And some sales are better than no sales. Sooner or later, you're going to like our service and see the value of a good LDS.

Thanks for your first post supporting what happened to me. If anyone doubts what I said happened read this quote. I try to deal with all the dive shops in my area except one do to a problem back in 1977,I hold a grudge along time.

 

[MikeFerrara]

bwerb once bubbled...
Question...I don't know...are there any "buying groups" for Scuba Dealers?

In my business field the independent dealers band together (kinda like Tru-Value or Ace Hardware) to present the manufacturers with lets say 1000 dealers. They then negotiate based on supplying 1000 dealers, not just each individual dealer cutting their own individual contract. The pricing is then based on a much larger volume to the manufacturer and in many cases the product selection available to the "buying group" is way better as they can be set-up with almost any vendor that they want. No dealer is fully bound to support the program but they have a definite interest in it in terms of selection and pricing.

There are then one of two scenarios set-up. Either the buying group has a distribution center which then re-ships to the dealers or alternately the manufacturers ship direct to the dealer based on higher minimum orders. So...you can either pay a bit more from the local warehouse or pay less but buy in a bit larger volume.

Is there anything at all like this in the Scuba industry?

None that I know of. I think it would be hard to pull off. First off shops don't talk much, at least around here. Second the manufacturers insist on approving each shop as a dealer seperately. I they went along with this willingly they would be selling the same volume to the same shops but for a lower price since it would all be purchased on one account. Certainly shops could get together and pool their money without telling the manufacturer but the purchase would go under the account of only one store giving them access to better prices independantly than the rest. Currently the price extended to dealers is based on yearly volume so the size of a single purchase doesn't effect price. Once a store buys enough to qualify for the next level then their pricing level is changed accordingly. Besides that the best price that can be had with most manufacturers isn't all that much better than what most of us have anyway. We still couldn't compete with some of the online stuff.

One of the biggest problems is (and it didn't use to be) is the price restrictions. Starting just recently it seems some of the manufacturers are serious about enforcing them. Look at this...if you walk into my store and there isn't any one there but us, I can give you any price I want and who knows. Now lets say I put up an online store. Now my advertised price better be what they tell me because the whole world can see it. I have a web site finished and ready to go online. However, my advertised price must be within the manufacturers guidlines. Who is going to look at the prices on my site and compare them to LP and buy from me. The answer is nobody. Two of my biggest lines restrict me to within 15% of MSRP and one allows No deviation at all.

As far as offering lower in-store prices it doesn't help much around here because of the size of the walk in market. In order to compete I need both the net and the ability to buy market share with pricing as well as other things. Starting this year every manufacturer we deal with is allowing online and mailorder sales but they've gotten tougher on the pricing requirements.

 

[Groundhog246]

WJL once bubbled...
Just so people don't get any wrong ideas, the comments by Groundhog about this LDS violating the law by refusing to sell or by "tying" sales of classes to sales of gear, are just plain wrong.

There is a doctrine in antitrust law which prohibits "tying" sales of one product (e.g. something scarce and desirable) to the purchase of another product (e.g. something ubiquitous and unwanted). This doctrine comes into play if, and only if, the seller has significant market power in the "tying" product. In simple terms, significant market power means something close to having a monopoly. The prohibited conduct occurs if a seller of some product which buyers want and can't get elsewhere (the "tying product"), requires the buyers to also buy something else that the buyers can easily get elsewhere (the "tied product"), usually at a lower price. There is no possible antitrust issue in this case unless this dive shop is the only source of dive training in the relevant geographic market, and we already know this is not the case both from the other posts in this thread, and from just plain old common sense.

(NEW - services can be products under antitrust doctrine, despite the fact that they do not meet the definition of goods under the UCC. See US Steel v. Fortner, 429 U.S. 610(1977)(sales of prefabricated homes allegedly tied to favorable financing services - case since discredited on other grounds)).

Could you clarify what's wrong with my statement? Nowhere in the antitrust law I've read is "Tied Selling" legal. You don't have to be in a monopoly or majority position, it is illegal under any circumstance. In the industry I'm in, it's been common for warranty repairs to be refused because consummables have been purchased from a 3rd party vendor. Canon has been a noted offendor, they've been taken to court several times, found guilty and fined quite heavily on each occasion. If I'm a car dealer (not the only one in town) and refuse to perform warranty repairs on your car unless you get all your maintance done here, that it "Tied Selling". I don't have to be the only car dealer in town, or the only local source of warranty repairs for that make, it's still illegal. More recently around here, several banks have been fined for requiring that monies loaned for investment purposes (RRSP's etc) be invested through them.

Therefore, in my opinion. A course is certainly a "service" (certainly taxable as a service around here). Thus if you have to buy all your gear at an LDS, in order to take a course there, that would fall under the definition of "Tied Selling".