We have heard from a former employee who stated that the shop owner had a rather interesting attitude regarding product sales. However, I'm not convinced that there isn't more to this than what we've heard.
Kicked out of Nitrox Class!!
- Thread starter domino22
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We have heard from a former employee who stated that the shop owner had a rather interesting attitude regarding product sales. However, I'm not convinced that there isn't more to this than what we've heard.
Perhaps it merely leaves the impression that they have more to do than listen to the rantings of an internet wacko.
Actually we heard from an anon "first post" person who made such claims. They certainly may be true, but then again, they may not be. I can't tell at this point, and since I'm nowhere near the Texas area, I'm probably never going to be able to tell for certain.
Anyway, aside from the yelling/screaming part, I don't see anything wrong for getting upset about your instructors not teaching/performing to whatever standards you have set or getting upset with an instructor for forgetting to teach some of the finer points of the class. The high pressure sales tactics does make it sound like a dive store that I would not want to personally patronize.
There is a reason prospective jurors are asked to not assume someone is guilty because they elect not to speak, and it applies here as well. The fact is they may see it as a no-win situation to come onto the message board to post when the sentiment on the board is so much against them. Either they are the devil for doing a mea-culpa and making a poor business decision, they give some sort of unsatisfactor wishy-washy response that doesn't say anyting of substance, or they are a-holes for defending themselves and getting into pissing contest and badmouthing ex-customers and potentially ex-employees.
As you said, it is their choice to not defend themselves, and the result is that many people will have a poor view of them. I however don't take their silence as automatic proof of guilt.
The more incredible the story I hear, the large the grain of salt I take with it and the greater the burden of proof I place on the storyteller. I find it hard to believe that people/diveshops/fishing trips are all as bad or as good as they are made out to be by people with obvious personal adgendas. Truth and blame tend to be much harder to ferret out then a one or two paragraph post.
Anyways, I'm done with posting this thread as it doesn't mean enough to me to lock horns with anyone.
My personal view: The poster was trouble waiting to happen, the instructor/dive shop owner was stupid, in the end both sides lost.
Anyway, aside from the yelling/screaming part, I don't see anything wrong for getting upset about your instructors not teaching/performing to whatever standards you have set or getting upset with an instructor for forgetting to teach some of the finer points of the class. The high pressure sales tactics does make it sound like a dive store that I would not want to personally patronize.
There is a reason prospective jurors are asked to not assume someone is guilty because they elect not to speak, and it applies here as well. The fact is they may see it as a no-win situation to come onto the message board to post when the sentiment on the board is so much against them. Either they are the devil for doing a mea-culpa and making a poor business decision, they give some sort of unsatisfactor wishy-washy response that doesn't say anyting of substance, or they are a-holes for defending themselves and getting into pissing contest and badmouthing ex-customers and potentially ex-employees.
As you said, it is their choice to not defend themselves, and the result is that many people will have a poor view of them. I however don't take their silence as automatic proof of guilt.
The more incredible the story I hear, the large the grain of salt I take with it and the greater the burden of proof I place on the storyteller. I find it hard to believe that people/diveshops/fishing trips are all as bad or as good as they are made out to be by people with obvious personal adgendas. Truth and blame tend to be much harder to ferret out then a one or two paragraph post.
Anyways, I'm done with posting this thread as it doesn't mean enough to me to lock horns with anyone.
My personal view: The poster was trouble waiting to happen, the instructor/dive shop owner was stupid, in the end both sides lost.
G-lock
Registered
Mike-
I must comment that your insights are most refreshing on a subject that tends to inflame tempers. My thought is the manufactures need to untie the shops hands so they can compete. I'm not foolish enough to not notice the value added by the LDS, but there are limits on what I'm willing to pay for the value, so when the LDS invests in me, I reward them even if it costs more than online, but I always carefully consider how much of an investment that is i.e. my LDS spent an hour helping my fit a mask and I was happy to pay twice what it was on line, but they didn't carry the reg I wanted but would order at list and no time investment or ability to service it, so I couldn't spend the extra 200 to buy it from them. That said, I know that they will still get my money for my drysuirt and my next wetsuit, but probably not my 'puter since they carry a very limited selection. So it's all about fairness and relationship and the manufactures are the ones screwing the dealers and the public. Something's gotta change! Mike, PM your shop location, I'm coming thru IN on way to FL and I'd like to leave some money there If I can fit a visit in. Jeff
Exactly.
I had no problem paying for service, provided that its real.
I wanted a new mask and desired to have the ability to "fit" it. I bought it at a dive shop, where I could try it for fit before buying. I know full well that I paid more - a lot more - than I could mail order the mask, but I know it fits.
If I didn't care about that, WalMart has perfectly-servicable US Diver's masks - they're just fine for diving - for WELL under half the price. In fact, the LDS sells the same mask at double what you can buy it for at Wally World!
But when that same LDS tried to get me to buy a Sunnto Vytec transmitter at 10% off FULL LIST, hiding behind a "dealer agreement", and yet provided NOTHING in the way of service (not even a promise to immediately swap it if it failed in warranty), I ordered it online - and told them I was doing so.
They watched the profit walk out the door.
Show me a package of service and product that offers good value, I buy from you. Show me an arrogant attitude that you "deserve" my business, and you get the one-finger salute, and my wallet snaps closed.
That's how it is, and how it should be for all consumers.
Meerchants who play on fear, greed and bullying of their customers do not deserve to be in business.
I ran a company for more than a decade. We were in the upper quartile on our pricing for most of our services and products, and in fact sold several of our products at full list. I was well-aware that with over one hundred competitors in my metro area, nobody had to buy from me.
Either I made the value equation work for each individual customer, or they bought somewhere else. It really was - and is - that simple.
But what I never did was try to bully, intimidate, or threaten a customer who bought somewhere else for some part of what they wanted. Nor did I sell any product or service, except as part of an explicitly packaged bundle, intentionally at a loss to "guilt trip" someone (or bully and threaten them) into buying something ELSE that had a good profit margin!
Those kinds of practices are outrageous.
As for the manufacturers untying the shop's hands, the ball is in the shop's court. Without a distribution channel the manufacturers have nowhere to sell their product. As a consequence of this should the LDSs decide that they simply aren't going to live under these rules, they can force the change.
The fact of the matter is that they like the way they are treating divers, and the rules they're living under. Oh sure, there are outliers like Mike - but his complaining is a bit less-than-straight-up, given that he has refused to organize other, like-minded shops in order to form either a buying cooperative or pressure manufacturers to change their tune.
Metalman
Registered
For every "ranting internet wacko", there are a number of us out there reading along, wondering how the problem could become so serious that people discuss it this passionately.
As a new diver, I can't take the risk of buying from someone who has such a negative reputation. I can't take the risk that an LDS won't have particular thing I want and then pout like an 8 year old when I buy it somewhere else (another LDS or whatever). It is hard to accept, but I take the risk of buying from a supposedly trusted professional who behaves this way.
I still have a number of diving products left to buy, but I can say that none of them will be purchased from "Texas Judy".
Ok, being I don't live in or anywhere near Texas, I wouldn't be buying there anyhow, but you get the point...
-MM
From runvus4: "Actually we heard from an anon "first post" person who made such claims. They certainly may be true, but then again, they may not be. I can't tell at this point, and since I'm nowhere near the Texas area, I'm probably never going to be able to tell for certain...."
I asure you it is true. Because of my experience and my students' experience, I believe what happened to domino22.
From runvus4: "...Anyway, aside from the yelling/screaming part, I don't see anything wrong for getting upset about your instructors not teaching/performing to whatever standards you have set or getting upset with an instructor for forgetting to teach some of the finer points of the class. The high pressure sales tactics does make it sound like a dive store that I would not want to personally patronize...."
We-Be-Dying is a PADI CDC. And I am an independant PADI instructor bound by my agency to teach courses per the PADI standards. The shop owner cannot change these standards. If she wants me to teach something other than what my instructor guide says, she can teach it herself. This instructor didn't forget to teach the finer points, she wanted this instructor to improperly modify weights in a back-inflate BCD so the OW student could sit straight up on the surface. I wanted the student in a jacket to make her more comfortable, but Judy likes to sell the more expensive ladies back-inflat model.
From runvus4: "The more incredible the story I hear, the large the grain of salt I take with it and the greater the burden of proof I place on the storyteller. I find it hard to believe that people/diveshops/fishing trips are all as bad or as good as they are made out to be by people with obvious personal adgendas. Truth and blame tend to be much harder to ferret out then a one or two paragraph post..."
Again, this LDS owner has her personal problems, and it is directly reflected in the way she does business. Yes, I got a personal agenda, she never paid me for any of the work I did. But that doesn't change the story of the original post and it confirms what my student's have told me about their run-ins concerning where they purchased their gear. Some of it from other LDS that dealt the brand they wanted.
A large part of this business is generated from referrals. Remember the customer is right and knows what they want, and don't burn your bridges just because they purchased elsewhere. I've seen too many times where the internet sale just didn't work out that well or the e-bay product wasn't what it was suppose to be. Treat your customers right and they come back. Sometimes to purchase that new BCD and regulator.
I asure you it is true. Because of my experience and my students' experience, I believe what happened to domino22.
From runvus4: "...Anyway, aside from the yelling/screaming part, I don't see anything wrong for getting upset about your instructors not teaching/performing to whatever standards you have set or getting upset with an instructor for forgetting to teach some of the finer points of the class. The high pressure sales tactics does make it sound like a dive store that I would not want to personally patronize...."
We-Be-Dying is a PADI CDC. And I am an independant PADI instructor bound by my agency to teach courses per the PADI standards. The shop owner cannot change these standards. If she wants me to teach something other than what my instructor guide says, she can teach it herself. This instructor didn't forget to teach the finer points, she wanted this instructor to improperly modify weights in a back-inflate BCD so the OW student could sit straight up on the surface. I wanted the student in a jacket to make her more comfortable, but Judy likes to sell the more expensive ladies back-inflat model.
From runvus4: "The more incredible the story I hear, the large the grain of salt I take with it and the greater the burden of proof I place on the storyteller. I find it hard to believe that people/diveshops/fishing trips are all as bad or as good as they are made out to be by people with obvious personal adgendas. Truth and blame tend to be much harder to ferret out then a one or two paragraph post..."
Again, this LDS owner has her personal problems, and it is directly reflected in the way she does business. Yes, I got a personal agenda, she never paid me for any of the work I did. But that doesn't change the story of the original post and it confirms what my student's have told me about their run-ins concerning where they purchased their gear. Some of it from other LDS that dealt the brand they wanted.
A large part of this business is generated from referrals. Remember the customer is right and knows what they want, and don't burn your bridges just because they purchased elsewhere. I've seen too many times where the internet sale just didn't work out that well or the e-bay product wasn't what it was suppose to be. Treat your customers right and they come back. Sometimes to purchase that new BCD and regulator.
cstreu1026
Contributor
I have just spent the last hour or so reading the more than 100 post in this thread and it seems that everyone is in agreement that the owner of the shop was not right in her actions at least from a moral or ethical stand point. Legally she seems to be well with in her rights. What she failed to realize is that word of mouth is the best form of advertising and a customer is is unsatisfied or disgruntled is likely to be far more outspoken that someone who loves the products or service he or she recieved at her shop. Her actions will more than likely end up making an impact oh her future business.
I think a good deal of the online vs. LDS debate could be solved if the shops could learn to get along and talk to each other. If enough people were to put pressure on the manufacturers they could likely get the price restrictions removed or atleast a comprimised be reached. I know in the ski industry manufacturers make an effort to keep dealers' profit margins in the 50-60% range, however they don't make an effort to make MSRP the actual prices. In my area one can expect to pay ~$200 less than MSRP for a high end pair of race skis. These dame companies do however make it clear that they do not want dealers selling their products online as they want part of the experience with their products to be the expert advice you may recieve at a local ski shop.
Well its nearly 4 AM so I think i have ranted enough.
I think a good deal of the online vs. LDS debate could be solved if the shops could learn to get along and talk to each other. If enough people were to put pressure on the manufacturers they could likely get the price restrictions removed or atleast a comprimised be reached. I know in the ski industry manufacturers make an effort to keep dealers' profit margins in the 50-60% range, however they don't make an effort to make MSRP the actual prices. In my area one can expect to pay ~$200 less than MSRP for a high end pair of race skis. These dame companies do however make it clear that they do not want dealers selling their products online as they want part of the experience with their products to be the expert advice you may recieve at a local ski shop.
Well its nearly 4 AM so I think i have ranted enough.
DameDykker
Guest
BTW How do you think the rest of the class felt like after they though you out? Are the hving a nice course? Will they come back as customers? Will they also tell their friends, family and colleges about her attitude?
And domino22 are'nt you glad you never went diving with such an unballanced person? And did you get your 25$ deposit back as well??
And domino22 are'nt you glad you never went diving with such an unballanced person? And did you get your 25$ deposit back as well??
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