Kicked out of Nitrox Class!!

[Northeastwrecks]

scubaroyster once bubbled...
This instructor didn't forget to teach the finer points, she wanted this instructor to improperly modify weights in a back-inflate BCD so the OW student could sit straight up on the surface. I wanted the student in a jacket to make her more comfortable, but Judy likes to sell the more expensive ladies back-inflat model.

That's an entirely different issue that has little to do with her "stability".

I can understand why a shop owner would expect you to teach the student to dive using the equipment she had just bought. It might make you job easier to stick her in a poodle jacket and run her through the course; however, what's going to happen when the student actually tries diving in her new rig? Its your job to teach them properly. Properly includes diving in the equipment that they've bought. That's also well within agency standards.

Substituting a used poodle jacket for a brand new BC to correct a problem as easy to deal with as surface trim is ridiculous. That's usually an issue of technique and, perhaps, weighting. It has little to do with the equipment.

I'm curious what the "improper modifications" were.

I still believe that the shop owner was not correct to act in the manner that she did. However, based on your post, I'm now completely and utterly unconvinced that she was not the sole source of the problem.

 

[HIdiver]

I have had the same type of experience here in Hawaii! The LDS are not too happy when they hear that you buy your gear online... so I don't tell them! I like the service, quality, and price I get from the online stores. The LDS here sell their gear at a 100% - 200% + mark-up! Its crazy for them to expect me to buy my gear there (which they do and are vocal about it, just like the original post, but maybe not as severe) when they are asking as much as they do. Because of this experience, I tend to stay out of the LDS unless it is a need to buy item or a small item... its really too bad for them that they are as rude as they are, because my attitude towards them would be different. :upset:

 

[domino22]

DameDykker once bubbled...
BTW How do you think the rest of the class felt like after they though you out? Are the hving a nice course? Will they come back as customers? Will they also tell their friends, family and colleges about her attitude?

And domino22 are'nt you glad you never went diving with such an unballanced person? And did you get your 25$ deposit back as well??

No I did not get the $25.00 back I got "Shop Credit". The two check out dives would have been with a different instructor,I met him he was ok it was a part time thing for him he had a full time job in law enforcement.

 

[Krisscuba]

This does not surprise me. I have been certified since 74, dozens of instructor certs, I live in Florida. I cannot remember when I was last in a dive shop. I try and stay away from them.

This reminds me of Ben Stevens shop in Savannah. He would sell $2,000 of gear to an open water student, and the student would not even have a BCD. He would sell them a boat trip for OW cert, Nitrox course etc. He did not care if they got certified or not. He knew that either way he had all of the money he would probably see from them. He would then tell them if they did not buy scubapro, they would drown. The joke was that when you went into Bens shop, he would dive so fast, so deep, and so long into your wallet you would get the Bens (BENDS).

Dive shops are not what they once were. I am tired of hearing the crap that rag "Dive Training" puts on its back cover about supporting your dive shop. The dive shop should support me and make me want to come in. email them divetraining@spc-mag.com

I plan to head out to Mill Pond run today to dive. When I need air I will stop by Morrison springs and have Dennis charge the tanks. They do not sell any gear and have little to rent they only fill tanks and sell entrance fees to the spring.

Perhaps it is time to bring back the old fashioned dive club. Where a group of divers got together, pooled gear and bought a compressor to dive.

I would love to have people support a dive shop/hobby for me at their expense.

Aynone interesed ion diving the Florida pand handle, drop me a line and go on a road trip.

Check out Vortex site, they are about 7 miles from me. They have web cams www.vortexspring.com

I am also tired of hearing about the c card expiration, another way for failing, disability dive operators to get money. Real dive shops do not need it. The industry came up with a OW and Instructor cert to regulate themselves to keep the government out. Now there are so many I cannot count them. If the dive shops do not stop, we may have to beg the government to regulate the industry to cut down on regulations.

Tanks

Kris

 

[scubaroyster]

From Northeastwrecks: "I can understand why a shop owner would expect you to teach the student to dive using the equipment she had just bought. It might make you job easier to stick her in a poodle jacket and run her through the course; however, what's going to happen when the student actually tries diving in her new rig? Its your job to teach them properly. Properly includes diving in the equipment that they've bought. That's also well within agency standards.

Substituting a used poodle jacket for a brand new BC to correct a problem as easy to deal with as surface trim is ridiculous. That's usually an issue of technique and, perhaps, weighting. It has little to do with the equipment. ..."

You read into the response, I provided, and make up your own story. This isn't hypothetical - My case involved an older lady wanting to learn how to dive before going to the caribbean. She only bought mask, fins and snorkel. The store owner perceived this lady would like the back inflate BCD. (Older ladies learning to dive really go for those techy BCDs with the straps and rings - not like a "poodle" jacket). This lady only wanted to be able to comfortably hold her head up out of the water on the surface. She wanted to do it like the instructor (I wear a jacket when teaching classes). I also didn't mention that the student was showing signs of panic on the water's surface in the pool. Rather than let the lady use a jacket, Judy insisted that she use the back inflate by putting additional weight in the upper trim pockets. Like I said, If Judy wants to teach it her way, she can do so.

Remember the customer knows what they want, give it to them unless it is inappropriate. They want the easier jacket, give it to them. They want better prices, give it to them. They want exceptional service, give it to them. They want instruction without high pressure sales tactics, give it to them. If you don't, they WILL take their dollars elsewhere.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Its becoming more and more obvious that you've got a personal issue with the owner and that this thread has become a vehicle for you to flame this shop.

I'm not making anything up. I'm reading what you wrote.

Precisely how were you instructed to "improperly modify weight" in a back inflate BC? It sounds like you were told to put weight in the trim pockets. At least on the models I've seen, trim weight pockets are designed to hold weight. There is nothing improper about using them to trim out the diver. In fact, that's what they are designed to do.

I've worked with a number of students who purchased back plates and wings and/or back inflate BC's. We teach them how to maintain proper surface trim with those rigs. Specifically, we teach them to lean back and avoid overinflating the bladder. We also teach them proper leg positioning. We use the trim weights if necessary and make other adjustments as required. However, teaching them to lie back usually does the trick.

I cannot understand why you would wear a poodle jacket while training or why you'd advocate selling one of those things to a student. They are harder to trim out underwater, have a much larger cross section and more failure points.

I will agree that this student doesn't sound like a prime candidate for a doubles rig. However, I've had good luck teaching females who did not want to become tech divers, but who wanted a good, solid, BC using basic back inflates such as a SeaQuest Libra.

What type of BC was the student wearing?

Now I'm wondering what really happened in that Nitrox class.

 

[scubaroyster]

OK Mr. Litigator. I see by your need to develop everything into an arguement you live up to your real profession.

Your user name and your most recent response tells me you're one of those tech-heads. And that's OK. You reeled me in this far, but you are way off topic and I will end my participation with this:

First, I didn't start the thread or bring up the name of the shop. But after being identified, I will confirm what went on there concerning sales pressure to customers undergoing instruction.

Second, I don't force any equipment on someone that is uncomfortable with it. There is no need to introduce unwelcomed stress into a beginner class the first day. If the equipment introduces unwanted stress, eliminate it with a better choice of equipment "for that diver". There was a better choice for this student, why screw around with the student. This would be a different story if the student wanted and purchased the back-inflate BCD.

And I'll say it another way. The customer really knows what they don't want. Why would I force something down the customer's throat, only for them to find out later they didn't need it.

If you have a genuine interest in all of the specifics (Pool session) that are off topic, please send me a PM and I will answer all of your questions.

Now, you may have the last word.

 

[scubaroyster]

No Fare. You edited your last post! Makes my response sound defensive. I still invite you to send me a PM if you want more. More than happy to fill in all the holes that you only have to wonder about.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Yeah, I edited it a couple of hours ago because it didn't come out quite right.

I'm not interested in an argument and I am interested in what happened with this student.

I'll PM you for the details.

 

[metridium]

domino22 wrote...
No I did not get the $25.00 back I got "Shop Credit".

Question for NEW: Since the shop unilaterally terminated the contract, wouldn't a refusal to return all deposits in cash equivalents be actionable?