Key Largo-Rainbow Reef dives

[1bubbleoff]

Interesting turn to this thread..I've been following it...trying to understand...the OP's original issue....I spent several DAYS..over 10 dives...with R.R. last Sept...and have nothing but good things to say about my time with them.
While they are DEFINITELY..a "younger" staff...( I'm on old man..50 now)..I had a blast...I found them ALL to be highly professional, certainly capable as dive Pro's, intimately familier with their operation and it's sites, and HIGHLY entertaining...Jordan..Thor...your a hoot!!.
I would dive them again in a heartbeat...at No TIME did I ever feel as if they were incapable or unsure...and they were VERY aware of each divers preferences...they made it clear that they were at most.."Dive Guides"...for those that wished to have that option.
Sorry that your experience..or perception..of your experience...left you somewhat disenchanted... maybe a few unrealistic expections or communication issues?
And lastly...those ops KNOW the Pennecamp..if you were "scheduled"...for something..and they moved dive sites..please beleive it was in YOUR...the customers..best interest.

 

[oly5050user]

Absolutely wrong. If they'd been by themselves, they'd have been able to turn their dive at a set air pressure. It was the DM leading them that got them lost, that didn't turn when he should have, and gave them the impression they needed to stay with him. agesilaus informed him of his air levels to facilitate when to turn the dive. The DM failed to do so. It was the DM's fault they surfaced so far from the boat, since he had responsibility for navigation.

The sole saving grace was that agesilaus acted correctly, followed his training and ascended when he was low on air. Far too many divers would have continued to trust this untrustworthy guide, and stayed down, and alongside him till they ran out of air; prompting a genuine emergency.

There is only one skill level that needs a guide in the Keys; OW Student. agesilaus is a certified diver, and he knew to come up when his air said too. He knew to wait on the surface for the boat with his safety sausage inflated. He acted correctly, and he made only two mistakes that I can see. The first was not keeping his mask on at the surface (on your forehead is a great way to have it knocked off and lose it, and it can't protect you from waves when it's not on-you won't always dive in such great conditions, friend) and the (slight) mistake was not in tracking navigation, but he gets a pass because of the difficult path followed.

agesilaus acted correctly; the guide did not. This is why I refuse to trust any DM trying to guide a dive.

maybe a certified diver, but using observation skills perhaps the dm felt that they should be guided. better to be reasonably prudent than have an accident. just because they hold a card does not mean they can dive safely.

 

[ZombieZombie]

Just a follow up to my own post where I say there was a comms issue and the guide surfaced with the other 2 divers leaving my wife and I down? Well I watched my own (very poor quality) video of the dive and the Rainbow Reef guide can be seen quite clearly signalling to me that she was surfacing! (One of the other divers was having buoyancy problems).

It was eye opening to see the objective evidence. I simply missed the signal during the dive despite the fact that I was staring right at her.

On review, I give the Rainbow Reef guides during my dives a 10/10 for friendliness and professionalism.

 

[agesilaus]

Ah, the guide was male not female. So maybe you weren't in our group.

And as for Rainbow Reef, I wasn't upset about having to wait for the boat to come to us, and didn't hold it against the guide. He had only been doing this for a few months. I just would have preferred to have done four different dive sites rather than three. Or at least have been given an explanation about why were returned tothe same place.

 

[T.C.]

maybe a certified diver, but using observation skills perhaps the dm felt that they should be guided. better to be reasonably prudent than have an accident. just because they hold a card does not mean they can dive safely.

Irrelevant.

No DM is the scuba police. They don't GET to make value judgements like, "you look unskilled, you have to follow me". Diving does not work that way.

 

[Timmyjoe]

Irrelevant.

No DM is the scuba police. They don't GET to make value judgements like, "you look unskilled, you have to follow me". Diving does not work that way.

I'm new here so you can take this with a grain of salt, but I think if I owned an organization like Rainbow Reef, and I had some divers on board one of my boats, and they came across to me and my experienced guides as "unskilled", I could see making the call of "You need to either dive with one of our guides, or not dive from our boat." Because you know as soon as that "unskilled" diver has an incident with a negative outcome, who do you think he is going to sue and come after legally.

If you agree to dive from their boat, you need to go along with their rules. If you don't want to go along with their rules, find another boat.

Just my newbie 2¢ worth.

Best,
-Tim

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

I'm new here so you can take this with a grain of salt, but I think if I owned an organization like Rainbow Reef, and I had some divers on board one of my boats, and they came across to me and my experienced guides as "unskilled", I could see making the call of "You need to either dive with one of our guides, or not dive from our boat." Because you know as soon as that "unskilled" diver has an incident with a negative outcome, who do you think he is going to sue and come after legally.

If you agree to dive from their boat, you need to go along with their rules. If you don't want to go along with their rules, find another boat.

Just my newbie 2¢ worth.

Best,
-Tim

That's why you sign the waiver. If you opt out of using the dive guide they would never know how you handled yourself. From the times I've been with them the only rule they have is "take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but bubble" and don't damage the reefs!

 

[oly5050user]

Irrelevant.

No DM is the scuba police. They don't GET to make value judgements like, "you look unskilled, you have to follow me". Diving does not work that way.

Sure it works that way. An experienced instr or DM can very often spot a problem as they walk down the dock to the boat. Have trouble managing to carry your gear to the boat, using all rental gear,asking questions like"how much lead do you think I need" all all giveaways to inexperienced divers who probably need to be watched carefully. The DM absolutely is what you may call scuba police. If the DM feels through either direct or indirect observation that a diver on the boat may be a liability to him/herself or others diving off that boat the DM has an absolute obligation to do something about it. Rather lose a customer than have a dead one on the boat

---------- Post added May 2nd, 2014 at 01:03 PM ----------

That's why you sign the waiver. If you opt out of using the dive guide they would never know how you handled yourself. From the times I've been with them the only rule they have is "take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but bubble" and don't damage the reefs!

Waiver does not prevent having to explain to authorities why you have a dead diver on board. I can just see it, "yes officer I observed that the deceased had 30lbs of lead on him,when everyone else wore only as much 12lbs or less, yes officer he is smaller than most others on board, and I observed he needed assistance assembling his regulator to his tank,but I knew he signed a waiver so I did not do anything to make our charter any safer." If the dive pro did not take action on what he observed and acted differently than what a reasonably prudent dive pro would do , then he indeed is negligent and THAT is not signed away on any type of waiver.

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

Hi TC,

You are judging how you (and I) would react to a DM acting as the scuba police. But, I can tell you, there are many, many divers that hit the Keys that (1) have little to no open water experience, or (2) got OW cerified in fresh water closed environments and have no experience with ocean conditions, currents, waves, etc, or (2) have not done a dive in years and have had no refresher course, or (3) are simply erratic for various reasons or are full of macho bluster to cover for lack of skills, or (4) all or some combination of the above.

A DM has a tough job in the Keys. As others have said, if they have the ability to spot a diver in danger before that diver hits the water, they not only have the right but the obligation to act, forgetting about legalities (which of course no one can really forget about), but just out of human decency as a trained professional whose job it is to make sure divers have a safe and enjoyable dive.

That is why you (and I) would prefer smaller operations (six packs) that will work closely with us and so have the ability to accurately assess our skill levels. ON a larger boat, the DM has to make judgment calls with many more people and much less data.

They are within their rights to require supervised dives, or even to prevent divers from entering the water. It is the captain's call, and it is the captain's boat, and the captain's rules and they can defer to the DM if they want. The Coast Guard will back that up every time.

The "every person is completely alone and self-responsible" philosophy can work for divers (or buddy teams) that are experienced, motivated, well trained, properly equipped, and, did I forget, experienced. A couple of days on a Key Largo cattle boat would be a real eye-opener for you. You and I would dive well together and not need supervision, but a DM cannot necessarily be faulted for spotting ineptitude that might spell danger and acting accordingly before a body has to be recovered.

If a DM approached me and said I had to be supervised, I would be furious, at first. Then, I would ask what it was about my behavior that led him or her to think that? As good a diver as I believe I am, something can be off kilter on any particular occasion and if I needed to clean up my act then I would be glad I was alerted. If it is just "you have to stay with the herd because that's the way we do it" then I would not be returning. I don't think RR operates in that latter fashion, but any DM, for any op, could act to prevent an issue from arising, in their best judgment.

 

[T.C.]

Sure it works that way. An experienced instr or DM can very often spot a problem as they walk down the dock to the boat.

You can't look at a diver and say; They'll be trouble, unless you've evolved telepathy and we haven't.

Have trouble managing to carry your gear to the boat,

Ever run into a disabled person? I know several people who have reduced arm strength and couldn't carry their gear well.

using all rental gear,

Oh, I get it. New diver can't buy equipment, and experienced divers will never be caught without theirs. So easy. I guess you've never heard of things like theft, airlines losing bags, or just owning the wrong gear for the climate and having to rent?

asking questions like"how much lead do you think I need" all all giveaways to inexperienced divers who probably need to be watched carefully.

What about a diver from the Pacific NW who has only used a drysuit, even in OW certification? Think they may ask how much they'll need, never having been anywhere warm?

My point is that DMs are not dive gods, though in my experience many (not all) like to think they are.

The DM absolutely is what you may call scuba police. If the DM feels through either direct or indirect observation that a diver on the boat may be a liability to him/herself or others diving off that boat the DM has an absolute obligation to do something about it. Rather lose a customer than have a dead one on the boat

No, they don't. They can suggest, recommend and offer, but cannot order, direct or require. DMs are not the scuba police; and it is the mentality that they are that leads to the unskilled divers that continue to proliferate.

Second, a DM is not there as a supervisor or boss, they are a guide. Nothing more.

Waiver does not prevent having to explain to authorities why you have a dead diver on board. I can just see it, "yes officer I observed that the deceased had 30lbs of lead on him,when everyone else wore only as much 12lbs or less, yes officer he is smaller than most others on board, and I observed he needed assistance assembling his regulator to his tank,but I knew he signed a waiver so I did not do anything to make our charter any safer." If the dive pro did not take action on what he observed and acted differently than what a reasonably prudent dive pro would do , then he indeed is negligent and THAT is not signed away on any type of waiver.

And if the passenger insists that he can't get down without that 30 pounds, or that he knows what he's doing? Or reminds the DM that they're not responsible for them?

DMs, and no one in scuba, has a requirement to act, unless the indication is clear danger- in that case, they need to be denied the dive. Second, even if they felt there may be a problem and let them dive, that would be simple (not gross) negligence. EVERY waiver I've signed releases a crew/boat/operation from being responsible for me- to include negligence. Just how many sucessful suits have there been against these waivers? Zero? Thought so.

It's this sort of mentality that leads to the unskilled, dangerous divers. The sort that remember the last time, how the DM guided them around, assembled their gear, and treated them like sheep. We get these divers because they get reliant on DM/instructors to do everything for them, and all they have to do is follow like good little sheep.

Until we break DMs of the habit of treating certified divers like one-size-fits-all sheep, you'll continue to see this problem. I know it's not popular, and the DMs will fight to defend their little bit of turf, but it is the truth.

I'm new here so you can take this with a grain of salt, but I think if I owned an organization like Rainbow Reef, and I had some divers on board one of my boats, and they came across to me and my experienced guides as "unskilled", I could see making the call of "You need to either dive with one of our guides, or not dive from our boat." Because you know as soon as that "unskilled" diver has an incident with a negative outcome, who do you think he is going to sue and come after legally.

That's why you give them the choice. But to require it without justification, and en-mass is absolute ridiculousness.