Just for laughs...

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Why fraud? Monkey diving is a variant of side mount diving. There are a lot of card collectors out there and this might appeal to them. Other than offending your side mount sensibilities and them having a bit of fun, what harm is actually being done here? Are the divers in any danger? Is the environment in any danger? No one is going to force you or I to teach like that so it's a case of dive and let dive. At least it is for me.
 
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Secondly, it just feels nice. It is a lot less cumbersome and unwieldy in the water. Sidemount is a pleasure to dive - assuming a solid foundation of expert instruction from the outset. No rig is a pleasure to dive if it badly configured etc etc (that's kinda the topic of this thread in the first place). In the last few years, I've had absolutely zero inclination to drag my backmount rigs (singles or doubles) out of the wardrobe... not once... every single dive I've done (baring only entry-level confined water with a student who is in backmount) has been in sidemount.

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I haven't done a minute fraction of the dives Andy had done but all the recent ones after I'd gotten my own sidemount rig, with the except of those done during the Solo Diver course, were in sidemount and I'll echo that it's really nice.

I did a lot of research on sidemount before hunting around for an instructor. There were less than 5 PADI ones in the whole of Malaysia early this year. Perhaps more now but but that doesn't matter because I was lucky to get a decent one who when not mucking around with his rebreather, was always in sidemount.

As for furthering my sidemount training, wait for me Andy. Things didn't go quite as planned over the past few months but The Philippines and you are still in my sights. :D
 
Why fraud? Monkey diving is a variant of side mount diving.

Like cavern diver is a variant of cave diving?

Sidemount diving, as a qualification, has some very broad consensus. The majority of agencies, including the major agencies, agree upon that in their syllabus. So does the general diving community; the reaction to those videos demonstrates that fact. Whilst the definition maybe broad, it does include certain key issues; the use of bungees to ensure cylinder trim in line with the torso being a globally accepted factor.

If monkey diving may be a variant of sidemount, or even (at a stretch) a sub-class,... it still isn't sidemount diving. Sidemount diving encompasses the whole gammut of the discipline... it is over-arching. It is a higher definition.

In the same way, single-cylinder sidemount is a 'variant' of sidemount diving. I can include single-cylinder tuition on a basic sidemount diver course, but I cannot (standards state - for PADI) qualify someone as a 'sidemount diver' unless they've mastered the full spectrum of the specialty (using two cylinders).

There are a lot of card collectors out there and this might appeal to them.

If that course resulted in a 'Monkey Diving' certification then fair enough. But, it is alleged, it results in a 'Sidemount Diving' certification.

...what harm is actually being done here? Are the divers in any danger? Is the environment in any danger? No one is going to force you or I to teach like that so it's a case of dive and let dive. At least it is for me.

If someone comes to a technical, cave or wreck course holding a 'Sidemount Diver' certification, then they will be allowed to use sidemount configuration for that course. Most agencies accept that now - it is written in varied prerequisites and standards. The diver themselves, having received that sidemount training would expect to be allowed to use that configuration.... it's why they invested in that training in the first place.

If that person was actually qualified in monkey diving, not sidemount diving, then it does create a hazard; both to themselves and to me. Do I need to explain why?

A certification should mean something, Pete. It has knock-on effects. Your inability to appreciate those consequences does not mean they don't exist. You may be the 'patron saint of excusing bad standards', but this is a stretch even for you..

So... when these 'Barakuda' divers turn up anywhere else in the world to dive sidemount, they're going to get re-buffed. Is that a sign of adequate and appropriate training?

A certification that states "this diver is trained in sidemount diving", shouldn't be issued unless that diver is trained "in sidemount diving". Monkey diving doesn't encompass sidemount diving. Sidemount diving can encompass monkey diving. They are not equals, nor alternatives.
 
Wow... reading that was like reliving all the people many years ago who told me how sidemount should not be allowed for any cave certification. Now it's almost mainstream. Nice open mind! You don't even know what, if anything they got certified for. After all, the video is labled MONKEY DIVING. Why would you expect there to be anything else but MONKEY DIVING in the video? Oh the horror that someone should have fun without your express permission and approval.

I see we have a turf war raging here. A self appointed purist is all agog that someone is doing something differently from the way he does it. Oh my! Isn't tolerance, experimentation and innovation ingrained in our side-mounting roots? It sure is in mine. I guess we have to get Andy his very own "Side Mountie" badge! He always gets his Stroke! Notice to the world: If you Side Mount differently than Andy, he will do his best to humiliate you. I really don't understand that baditude. Personally, I'll still experiment with different aspects of Side Mounting. Heaven forbid that I should ever offend your side mount sensibilities! Actually, I don't give a rat's patootie what you think about the way I dive. I will keep evolving my diving in the manner I see fit.
 
As I said: Patron Saint of Excuses for Sloppy Diving

There's little point in conversing with you, as you don't bother to read the entirety of peoples posts, or the thread debated. One last time, nice and simple, as if for ADHD... "The video shared was of a SIDEMOUNT instructor (trainer) course. It resulted in SIDEMOUNT diver qualifications". The video might have said 'monkey diving' - the result of THAT training wasn't "monkey diver" certifications.

I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you Pete....

You're an instructor. Read YOUR AGENCIES standards for a sidemount course. Consider whether that monkey-diving-debacle would meet the spirit of those standards in any way. Would it pass muster as a direct equivalent/prerequisite for such training for progression as a sidemount diver, through the courses that you, or your agency, provide?

This isn't about 'my perspective' Pete. As I have consistently and repeatedly expressed - this is about the perceptions of the sidemount community at large. Selectively ignore that, if you wish to continue making this a personal attack on me... but you're not fooling anyone with your crass and argumentative strategy..

I'm expressing no prejudice or assumption about your diving Pete. I've never seen you in the water, so how could I?
 
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The only thing I did not see in this discussion was the original video. I can't and haven't commented on that. What I did see was a video entitled Monkey Diving. I just don't see a video entitled Monkey Diving, showing people who were Monkey Diving as a problem. I guess anyone expressing a differing opinion of the Side Mount Mountie will be accused of not reading the entire thread and of having ADHD. Good job of making this personal rather than discussing the facts. Good luck with your turf war!
 
The only thing I did not see in this discussion was the original video. I can't and haven't commented on that. What I did see was a video entitled Monkey Diving. I just don't see a video entitled Monkey Diving, showing people who were Monkey Diving as a problem.

If you had read the thread, then you'd have also seen the FB screen-shot that described the video: Barakuda agency, training instructor-trainers in Sidemount Diver instructor qualifications.

But you read the thread before condescending.... didn't you?
 
Again, the aspersions... "If you had read the thread", etc. etc. Perhaps, if you had communicated clearly, then whatever point you're trying to make would be obvious. It's not that I can't understand it's that you're not doing your part in the communication process. The only thing that is clear is that you have some sort of superiority complex and you'll disparage anyone who disagrees with you or dares to dive and have fun without your express permission. I don't see anything that indicates that this was an instructor class. I definitely don't see it mentioned as the only in water session that they used. I don't speak a lot of German, so I might have missed that. I did see where they clearly identified what we call a "taco wing" as a "butterfly jacket". They aren't showing that in a good light with that moniker. I have taught many an instructor class in less than optimal gear configurations. Sometimes I'm over weighted, others I look like a Christmas tree with a lot of dangling ornaments and still others I adopt bad trim or swimming techniques. Why? I'm testing the instructors to be. There's even a video on youtube where an instructor to be let me silt out the place due to a combination of being over weighted and not having my inflator hose attached. It's hilarious but I bet some non-English speaking equivalent of Andy is disparaging me somewhere for my sheer strokery. Does that makes me the patron saint of sloppy instruction? Ask our Side Mount Mountie!
 
I did not want to comment here anymore, but I can't resist:
Side Mountie :rofl3: - I love that

I want to be one too! Do I get a badge with that?
(Would be even better than my 'Ocean Ranger' cert :crafty:)

To stay on topic:
I can confirm, they are (or have been) giving out a 'Sidemount Diver' cert - got one of those here.

I actually think this cert is fully justified, however.

While the practical part is horrible the theoretical part is not.
They describe bungee systems for example, but they mostly do not use them immediately afterwards.
There are other certs where the instructor is not able to perform as good as some of his students in the practical part.

In this case there is a reason: Because of CE requirements the first commercially usable sidemount system are only just appearing. While butterfly wings look horrible, they are CE approved and instructors have been allowed to use them for more than a few month.

Even if the students have never seen or made a good sidemount dive, they know how to get there.
It allows the student to take part in more advanced education in sidemount configuration and enables him to safely conduct his own experiments and training dives.
That is enough to be certified in this region of the globe.

---------- Post added December 18th, 2013 at 11:49 PM ----------

Just to make sure I am not misunderstood:
I still do not want to criticize DevonDiver in any way, but I rather like NetDoc's interpretation.
Calling a cert I posses 'fraudulent' is making me a bit irritated, I have to admit. :wink:

I just wanted to help by clearing up some misunderstandings, not create discord.

Though I try to use different methods (as I am not an instructor myself) I understand and share DevonDivers motives.
I would not even say he 'overshot' on this occasion.

I have always been the first one to admit that sidemount education in in my area leaves a lot of room for improvement.
But calling the basic training I received 'fraudulent' would not be the first thing to come too my mind.

Just keep in mind please:
Everyone here knows that for advanced sidemount education you have to go abroad - we all know!
Videos like those help us decide there, they do not hinder anyone who is likely to come across one of those instructors! We need them desperately (and also their videos)! They will improve (or have already), if they don't others will take their place.

__________________________________________________________
I would actually love to be in the Philippines for many other reasons than only good sidemount instructors, rather than in cold and uncomfortable Germany (received my heat west back from service today - did not help, I just hate everything below 6 degrees).
Anything about 10 Degrees (air temp) warmer would be ok - I would even take a place without sidemount instructors, as long as there is some water there.
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But on the bright side: in 2010 I had to search for more than a month before I found someone who did not have the word 'sidemount' spelled out to him on the phone - at least that changed.
 
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Razorista, it's good that you know that what was shown in that video is not "good" sidemount training. I am a HUGE proponent of getting sidemount training, you can look at my post history for that (in the past year, especially, on this forum and others). Andy and I agree on a lot of things, but we use two different "standards" that are emerging (I dive steels in an SMS100 with Edd's mods, he dives the more "minimalist" setup). The one thing here is that Andy's criticism may not have been the "constructive criticism" at first. Maybe he wanted others to chip in? Maybe he was misunderstood? Maybe it wasn't constructive at all in the beginning! Regardless, people taking that training should be AWARE that it's poor training. IMHO, it's more dangerous than doing it without training. When you do it without training, you're researching it yourself and you come across what is accepted and good and current "good" expecations. You come across threads like this, describing what is and isn't good. You also come across it cautiously and build momentum slowly. Too many people see the class listed on the LDS website, take the class, and get the card without ever looking at the information themselves. Once they get the card, they're truly thinking that their substandard training is good enough to do real dives and fling into it quicker than they would WITHOUT an instructor.

That was me. I took sidemount from a poor instructor. I thought my technique was flawless. Then I saw myself on video and came across Steve Martin's videos and Andy's website. It was OBVIOUS I was wrong. I was taking deco training from the same instructor. It was threads like this that allowed me to see how wrong I was and how dangerous of a situation I had put myself in and how miserable bad sidemount could be. I was okay with putting time into diving to figure it out myself, but figured an instructor would be better and easier. I was right, had I have qualifed it with "good."

I'm glad Germany is getting more sidemount divers, I really am.....I just hate that it's getting so many bad sidemount instructors. I'm not a sidemount-missionary, but I am going to be a gigantic proponent of GOOD mentorship/training regardless of what configuration you're in. I won't try a "real" dive with doubles on without some help, and I surely wouldn't progress to tech before getting that squared away.

On to another issue: I thought monkey-diving was single tank, no BCD, typically using a scooter. Calling deco-mounting two cylinders "monkey diving" is glorifying the action and, worse yet, condoning it. Saying that monkey diving is equivalent to sidemount is worse. Also, assuming that "monkey divers" need to have their cylinders poorly mounted is crazy to me. I'm building a monkey-diving rig right now. I hope I'm allowed to keep my cylinders in trim while I'm diving them. To me, monkey-diving is the shallow, single-tank, no stress diving a sidemount diver does when they're sick of two tanks. Well, that's how it was defined initially by the guys who coined the term.
 
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