Just for laughs...

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@victorzamora
I stated several times that I share and understand DevonDiver's motivations and do not want to criticize anyone!

The only thing I wanted to point out is that we are not happy with what we got, but it is all we have!

Do not demotivate 'bad' instructors, if there are no better alternatives! (if there are, you have 'my blessings', flame as much as you like ;-))

Those people are doing what they can to give others a chance at 'finding an new way to experience diving'.
They are pointing their students towards Steve's vids -and others (when I was there they thought that you needed Steve's skill to look that way though and did not know that everybody could do that in a Razor with little training... they know better by now).

The only thing that could come out of this is that less people here convert to sidemount.

Personally I am convinced that even the worst sidemounter can do better and survive more critical situations than most other people using inferior equipment.
Even if everyone only converts to 'bad sidemount' - it would be a huge improvement.
It will not take long before everyone realizes that it is not that hard to look almost good enough to be in a Steve B. video on first glance and seek advanced training or try to get there on his or her own.

btw: Barakuda defines 'monkey diving' exactly like you do - I admit in my opinion they are able to do it with two tanks as well :eyebrow:
But that's exactly what I meant regarding my own video. My 'style of diving' is essentially monkey diving - I monkey around :D - I rarely do real 'sidemount diving'.
It looks exactly the same when I do it though (or try to, more precisely). I see no reason to adopt an inferior way of carrying air around just because I have a different attitude regarding the dive.
 
With all due respect, what stopped/stops them seeking outside advice or external training?

It's what we used to call 're-inventing the wheel', when I was in the military. It's a pointless exercise, with weak results...and a definitively 'un-German' efficiency..

For an agency to adopt something new effectively, it needs to ensure it's primary cadre of instructor-trainers have solid foundations. Performance (good or bad) cascades downhill from there, through the training system. Once started, the cascade gathers inertia and becomes progressively harder to influence.

If the foundations doesn't exist 'in-house', then why not seek a consultant to supply it? Why not ensure that the cascade of knowledge initiates from the best source possible?

Barakuda/Germany may not have had any sidemount 'gurus' at the outset... but there's a few within a 2 hour flight time..
 
In this case there is a reason: Because of CE requirements the first commercially usable sidemount system are only just appearing. While butterfly wings look horrible, they are CE approved and instructors have been allowed to use them for more than a few month.

Ok then, CE ratings are not what I had imagined....taco wings are approved??? wut???
 
Ok then, CE ratings are not what I had imagined....
Most people imagine wrong there. CE for diving equipment is a bad joke mostly and has no use except completely closing the market to non-European products. :shakehead:

taco wings are approved??? wut???
Well, nobody imagined people to be daft enough to forget putting a tank on the wing. :wink:
CE is granted for the product disregarding the way it is used and more or less stating that improper use is not dangerous.
Without it you can not sell, rent or advertise a product here - without some competitor suing you.

With all due respect, what stopped/stops them seeking outside advice or external training?
Good question...
I can only guess here, but I think they did.
They just went to different people.
Highly experienced local cave divers can be either 'mineshaft deko divers' or exploration divers and mostly dry cavers there.
Non of them give a *** about 'style' or 'looks'.

I would not expect someone to continue looking if he can get contact to people in the area with seemingly far superior experience when looking at their number of dives, cave dives, or whatever.
How do you tell someone he should seek better instructors if his current instructor can prove a 5 digit number of dives as a technical diving instructor or commercial diver?

It's what we used to call 're-inventing the wheel', when I was in the military.
Ah, that explains your attitude there.
'Millitary style' is a preferred way of teaching here and seems to me to produce divers who will probably never try sidemount, even if it becomes the default configuration someday - highly professional, but also extremely conservative.
Sidemounters can easily be people who 'reinvent the wheel' on a daily basis :D
Nothing I would call a virtue, but well, some people are always crazy everywhere :wink: and they are very often the first ones to try out something as 'weird' as sidemount.

It's a pointless exercise, with weak results...
I have posted examples of the results above.
Criticize those if you like. :blinking:

and a definitively 'un-German' efficiency..
As with every cliche, there is not much truth in the one about 'German efficiency'.
But I can almost 'promise' you that, once instructors have caught up here, they will be behave as you seem to expect of them - some always do, but that never seemed particularly 'German' to me.

For an agency to adopt something new effectively, it needs to ensure it's primary cadre of instructor-trainers have solid foundations. Performance (good or bad) cascades downhill from there, through the training system. Once started, the cascade gathers inertia and becomes progressively harder to influence.
There is something to that...
I believe sidemount to be resistant to that pattern though.
It is hard not to notice the difference, even after the worst training, if you see someone who has either received good training, trained himself, or simply has some natural talent.

If the foundations doesn't exist 'in-house', then why not seek a consultant to supply it?
As I said, the foundations do probably exist 'in-house'. But those are probably people who have been using something quite like sidemount occasionally for 40 years - not 'modern' sidemounters.

Why not ensure that the cascade of knowledge initiates from the best source possible?
Sadly those sources only exist outside the interested agency, and are not adaptable for them that way.
The cascade of knowledge here will probably start with the students who improve beyond their teachers, get advanced training and become instructors afterwards.

btw: You are (amoung others) a Padi instructor, are you not?
Have you ever looked at the pictures in the Padi material for Sidemount training? - the ones I saw did not look convincing to me, mostly.
Bad examples to be found everywhere, if you look hard enough.

Barakuda/Germany may not have had any sidemount 'gurus' at the outset...
I am actually quite happy there are no sidemount gurus here.
If the Side Mounties at the local dive spots here start behaving like the Back Mounties do... :shakehead:
The way I dive could most likely not have been invented here and from the resistance I experienced, when I started trying things from Steve Bogaerts and Steve Martin videos my own, I think they could have prevented sidemount here completely.

but there's a few within a 2 hour flight time..
Can't understand that either, but I gave some possible explanations above.
 
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...

Good question...
I can only guess here, but I think they did.
They just went to different people.
Highly experienced local cave divers can be either 'mineshaft deko divers' or exploration divers and mostly dry cavers there.
Non of them give a *** about 'style' or 'looks'.

I would not expect someone to continue looking if he can get contact to people in the area with seemingly far superior experience when looking at their number of dives, cave dives, or whatever.
How do you tell someone he should seek better instructors if his current instructor can prove a 5 digit number of dives as a technical diving instructor or commercial diver?

...

But I'm sure Germany has access to the Internet or even if you were in a town which didn't, there would have been occasions to come into contact with people who had Internet access. I'm in Malaysia where the majority of divers are once or twice a year leisure ones who just want to add diving as one of the things they've done so the general standards are low but I still managed to check around A LOT to get a good idea of what sidemount diving was and should be like before sending out emails to the three instructors (only two replied in the end) who taught it. And much as I hated to have to spend time travelling to a dive centre, that was why I did in the end. Short flight followed by an hour odd drive, then an uncomfortable 3 hours shivering in a closed restaurant (not exactly a restaurant but that's close enough for that fishing village) waiting for dawn because we arrived at 0300hrs and the resort reception wasn't open.

Looking at the second video, it just about defeats every purpose of (the generally accepted) and benefits which sidemount diving is about. I have only used a stage bottle once in my short diving career and that was during my Solo Diver course but I sure as hell hated the resistance it caused by hanging from an angle and was constantly hugging close to me it in order to be streamlined.
 
But I'm sure Germany has access to the Internet

Yeah, but I doubt most people that go to an instructor and are told they're doing great will critique themselves honestly against what proper side Mount divers are doing.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk
 
There is probably some cultural difference involved here.
Our 'top-down' education system is not encouraging instructors to seek training outside their agency.

Instructors and instructor trainers probably really do not have that much spare time to surf the internet for youtube videos.
Really advanced divers also do it mix well with normal divers at dive spots, often those groups are separated by a few meters.
For me as an Open Water Diver without cave training it sometimes seems easier to get in contact with a cave diving instructor from the US or anywhere else.
I did not find many locally that would continue talking with me as soon as I mentioned that I am not interested in doing any cave training backmounting.

Sidemount is considered here much like it is also expressed by some in this forum:
As something that has been there very long and is not the 'revolution' some make it seem to be.

Will take some time, but I am sure they will see how much they have been mistaken there.

---------- Post added December 22nd, 2013 at 08:33 PM ----------

... against what proper side Mount divers are doing.
Perhaps you should consider the opinion NetDoc expressed there more closely?

What is a 'proper sidemount diver'?
I know for myself of course and I know many opinions regarding that.
But how am I to tell that to an tec diving instructor with (for example) 15000 dives and 35 years of experience?
Met those, and they have reason to laugh at some of us - there are people who can do anything I can do sidemount in their backplate and wing, except creeping though small openings or other things they do not consider that necessary, even dangerous and better to be avoided.

Even some less experienced instructors look down on me as a humble AOWD (with some reason).

I bought my Razor2-system as soon as it was possible and after some customs delays I am sure to be among the first few people to have received one in my country.
I am doing about 250 dives a year at the moment (almost all locally (car range), a maximum of 30 a year on holidays) and have never met an instructor who could match that even closely.
Some I have met do up to tree times that number of dives a year in backmount, however (and no, I do not know how they do it, but most are able to acceptably proof it).

It is equally hard to discuss the superiority of sidemount with people doing 5 hour rebreather dives with so many stages that 'sidemount' is replaced by something more like 'cloudmount'.

Most people need to see for themselves what is possible for a normal diver - youtube videos of probably talented individuals do not 'cut it' there.

---------- Post added December 22nd, 2013 at 08:39 PM ----------

...it just about defeats every purpose of (the generally accepted) and benefits which sidemount diving is about.
Same as above: look at what NetDoc expressed!

What they are doing is not dangerous and not impacting the environment (ok, lets not discuss the environmental impact of 1000 cubic meter heated pools ;-))

It certainly does not 'look' that good.
But it gives some sidemount experience. Better than getting none at all.
(the alternative is not to seek better training locally, there is next to none and that means going abroad and a constant fight for acceptance afterwards, not everyone is prepared to take that...)
 
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I have only used a stage bottle once in my short diving career and that was during my Solo Diver course but I sure as hell hated the resistance it caused by hanging from an angle and was constantly hugging close to me it in order to be streamlined.

I have never noticed any resistance caused by deco tanks, or by their angle. That sound like one of those justifications that some sidemount proponent seem to add to the ever lengthening list of justifications or "benefits" for side mount.

If you had to constantly "hug" that slung tank, then your setup was wrong. If a diver isn't able to figure out how to rig and dive that additional tank....then how would that same diver be able to figure out how to rig up a side mount setup??

Not singling you out specifically....but I have read that "justification" before about side mount......meaning: I couldn't dive a deco tank....so I'll switch to side mount, because it's better than my ineffective and limited exposure to a few dives with a deco tank.

As I've said before....I think side mount is kind of cool.
But people really reach for a lot of justifications and imagined benefits to side mount, which are kind of BS.

Just dive that $hit, because you like it!...and you like tinkering with dive gear! :cheers:

---------- Post added December 22nd, 2013 at 01:17 PM ----------

Personally I am convinced that even the worst sidemounter can do better and survive more critical situations than most other people using inferior equipment.
Even if everyone only converts to 'bad sidemount' - it would be a huge improvement.

I'm not following your, perhaps overly enthusiastic, sidemount pitch......are you saying that a diver converting to "bad sidemount"......is a huge improvement??...and improvement over what?
Bad sidemount would increase survivability...over what other configuration, exactly.

Sorry....but some of these "endorsements" that I am reading, are really a stretch.
I'm pretty open minded, and I do like the growth of side mount. I've said it before....I think it's kind of cool, although not for me.

But some of the "advantages" that side mount enthusiasts like to post, are really far out there.

I will say this....if a diver is average in their skill....then switching to sidemount, isn't going to improve their skill set at all....they will still be average, or probably a step down in skill, while they get through all of the experimental stages.

More divers should just work on their diving skills, period.

If your skills were sub-par, or completely lacking in some areas....then switching to sidemount isn't an improvement at all.

Poorly skilled divers, teaching or mentoring other poorly skilled divers, isn't development.
A bunch of bad side mount divers, isn't going to make anyone else want to adopt that system.

Maybe the side mount movement can police itself.....instead of the next great, industry money grab of attracting every diver possible to convert to side mount.....there should be a focus on....dare I say it?......standardized skill set, and something that at least is a move in the direction of standardization.

There is no appeal in "random crap"...represented by crappy divers.

Not say that you are.....but there are plenty of videos out there of crappy divers.

The focus should be on a progression like this: skills, skills, skills, skills, my new shiny side mount gear, skills, skills, skills, etc.

Instead is looks like: poor skills, my new shiny side mount gear, my go pro camera, now I'm going to mentor people and video everything, set up my You Tube account, mess around with my gear some more, convince everybody how much of an improvement my side mount $hit is, never seek out training, video some more, post some more, training?? what's that??

I think a lot of guys are jumping to side mount, because they think it's going to make them a better diver.
Training is what does that.....GOOD training.
 
@Pullmyfinger
I am perhaps overly enthusiastic there, but from my point of view the diving industry and education had completely lost focus for several years now.

Sidemount brings back the fun to diving by bringing back control (on several levels, unterwater and as customers).

It is just a personal opinion, but I cannot stand jackets and wings have stopped being attractive to me.
I would rather dive completely without a BCD instead of using one of those contraptions again.

...and improvement over what?
Normal recreational diving.
From my point of view that has stopped being recreational and just became tedious.
People fear a lot of dangers in diving, that simply do not exist in sidemount at all, or to a significantly lessened degree.

Bad sidemount would increase survivability...over what other configuration, exactly.
Singe tank recreational diving and diving education as a whole.

I think a lot of guys are jumping to side mount, because they think it's going to make them a better diver.
I always put forward myself for demonstration purposes there.
Sidemount made a 'better' diver out of me! ('completely different diver' would be a better description)

More or less from the first tryout dive every single time in the water was incomparable to everything I did before that.
Granted, I was a struggling and frustrated OWD at less than 60 dives than. Now I am at more than 10 times that number.
I will never be able to reach a comparable level in backmount - it is not possible anymore.

Sidemount and backmount are two different ways of interacting with the environment, nothing less.
(and, on the other hand, nothing more than a equipment choice and easy to do)

I cannot do a single one of my normal dives backmounted - almost nobody could, without stripping out off his wing every few minutes.

When I look for the rest of the group on a normal recreational dive I take on postures that are impossible (and useless) in backmount.

If I look at underwater objects I forget to remember up and down sometimes and end up 'turning with the fish'.

I know first hand just how unbelievable the advantages of sidemount can be - most are absolutely true, however.

---------- Post added December 23rd, 2013 at 02:05 AM ----------

One extreme and perhaps hard to understand example is hand movements:

In backmount hand movements are universally discouraged and arguably inefficient.

When I do a one armed breast stroke in sidemount (extending one arm forward and swinging it around parallel to the body) I do a quarter turn (has actually replaced fin movement in some situations for me).
You carry a comparable amount of mass around in sidemount config, but it can be moved more controlled and with less force needed to get an effect.
 
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