isolator open or closed?

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Boogie:
Like I have said, I am new to the sport. I have not been in the senario I am trying to minimize. I don't know how hard it is to determine which tank is leaking. If it is the first stage that is leaking, I am not sure if I would know which one it is. If I were unsure, I would definitley look at my SPG's. I would rather waste those 2 seconds than shut down the wrong tank. Have you had a catastrophic gas loss? Is it that obvious which tank is the problem? :confused:

You are right, if I had this problem the dive would be over. But wouldn't the speed at which you could shut down your isolator and offending tank determine if you have enough gas to make it back?

You are right again, these issues are not my biggest concern. I am doing my tech training right now and these are just some of the things I am considering.

Thanks again for the input.
 
You talked about
If you have just a couple hundred PSI left wouldn't you make for the surface instead of your first deco stop?

If you're diving the rule of thirds, you're not going to ever get into that situation. If you close the isolator and you even manage to lose all of the gas in one tank, that's what the 1/3 reserve is for.

You should NEVER be in a situation where you have to blow off deco stops... which is why having a second SPG isn't necessary.
 
Boogie:
If I understand the rule of thirds correctly, you would turn the dive with 2/3 of your gas remaining, use 1/3 or your retreat, and have 1/3 as a reserve. Right?

The senario I was considering was if I were to penetrate a wreck, turn at 2/3, be most of the way out of the wreck (have about 1/2 of my gas left), and have a catastrophic gas loss. Isn't it concievable that I might lose a significant amount of gas such that I don't even have 1/3 of my gas left? Know what I mean? I have contained the gas loss but may not have enough gas left to do my deco. But if I no longer have an SPG, how do I know that? I have followed the rule of thirds but am still screwed (not totally screwed, but in a hard spot anyway). As a diver with one SPG do I do my deco and hope that I have enough gas for it? Or do I head to surface and get treatment for DCI?

Back to my earlier question... have you had a catastrophic gas loss? Is it easy to tell which side it is if a first stage has failed? I am not trying to be a dick, I just haven't been there. Am I worried for nothing?
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
True with manifolded doubles you need to be quick at shutting down a valve. So? Get fast.
I've always wondered if it would be possible to put some sort of flow restrictor in the manifold or isolation valve, so that you have good transfer of gas at normal breathing rates, but enough restriction to prevent the immediate loss of so much gas in the case of a failure such as 1st stage freeflow on one side.

It might be a little more awkward when filling the tanks, but that shouldn't be too much problem.

Has anybody out there looked seriously at this?
 
Charlie:
I think that this is the exact reason theskull closes his isolator and then opens it 3 turns. It allows the tanks to equalize, it is not fully open and would resrict gas movement in the event of a failure, and is close to closed and would be very easy to close in the event of a failure.
 
Dons quote is why I said it was a moot point, Dennis.

Why bother wasting time looking at guages, you isolate first, and then worry about which post is leaking. Guess which one is leaking when you're looking at your only SPG??? It's obvious, as your ONLY SPG is hooked to the left post (Should be :rolleyes: )

Adding another SPG and spending time doing this and that accomplishes very little.

You are (or should be) more than quick enough to isolate before losing too much gas. Since the dive is over, and you've already done your gas management eon's ago, on the surface, you're already assured that you will have enough, assuming you've dove your plan of course.

Charlie:

You must be reading my mind. I have just recently (last 2 days) been discussing this very thing with my boys at home. I'm not getting any real warm reception, but it's just talk, and again, maybe a "theoretical" problem only.

Dennis:

One more thing. The gas required to do your deco is PROBABLY NOT your Backgas. (Although it could be).
 
Rotuner:

Can you imagine being in 1/2 a tank, and then as you're busy screwing needlessly around with valves, the one than was full just blew!!!!

Now you're down right to the wire immediately. No gas reserve anymore at all, for you, never mind your buddy. Sure, open that valve to let in some high pressure until the leaking tank matches the one you need and then shut it quick!!! cause now it's in reverse!!

Seems like a complete waste of time screwing with valves when you should be diving. All you need is a minor mental lapse to create confusion where none should have been in the first place.
 
Sorry Dennis, I didn't read your comment asking about the 3 incidents.

One was a death, and I wasn't there, but I heard what the REAL story was from a guy that was. I don't really want to comment on that one. But it was a closed isolator one.

Another one, which was a total dumb-a$$ one. I'm sure many folks here have done it. This guy who was new to diving doubles, and evidently didn't know which post was hooked to his SPG etc etc..you guys know where I'm going with this already.

He's breathing the right post, and I'll be dammed he's got a great SAC rate going!!! His gauge isn't moving.........

I don't even think he looked at his gauge once. Maybe he did, which is worse, as he didn't realize what was going on.

So of course, he's into the dive a ways, and all of a sudden, he's out of gas!!!! (Couldn't tell it was breathing a tad funny??)

I dunno, some people............

So at least he knows now. I asked what he was thinking. The answer I got told volumes. He wasn't.

I think a course to go along with that shiny new manifold would help people.

Enjoy.
 
I'll take a stab at this one...

The isolator should be open. This solves a few problems:

1) In the event of a massive gas loss (cracked manifold, burst disc, neck o-ring, ect.), it will be OBVIOUS where the gas is comming from. Familiarity with your gear will tell you that it's not a regulator problem. The proper thing to do in this situation is shut the isolator and breathe the last little bit of air from the offending side.

2) In the event of a reg failing, you will know exactly where the bad 1st stage is. Whichever reg is freeflowing is the reg that is broken. On my setup, if the reg on the 7ft hose is freeflowing, i shut down the right post. If it's the backup leaking, I shut down the left. I never touch the isolator. If it is the 1st stage o-ring, it won't be a very fast leak. Shutting down the post will stop the leak, and it is possible for the o-ring to reseat itself.

3) If the left post gets shut down, you might ask how do i know how much gas do i have left? Experience plays a BIG role in this. Knowing your SAC, time and normal swimming rate helps determine what you have left for the ascent and deco. It all boils down to being familiar with yourself and your system.

4) I don't dive 3rds. Personally, I'm too conservative. I usually dive 4ths of total gas. This may cut my bottom time, but allows me to have more than "just enough" gas to get out. I rely on a good SAC for a longer bottom time.

The senario I was considering was if I were to penetrate a wreck, turn at 2/3, be most of the way out of the wreck (have about 1/2 of my gas left), and have a catastrophic gas loss. Isn't it concievable that I might lose a significant amount of gas such that I don't even have 1/3 of my gas left? Know what I mean? I have contained the gas loss but may not have enough gas left to do my deco. But if I no longer have an SPG, how do I know that? I have followed the rule of thirds but am still screwed (not totally screwed, but in a hard spot anyway). As a diver with one SPG do I do my deco and hope that I have enough gas for it? Or do I head to surface and get treatment for DCI?

At this point, your buddy should be all over you. You still have some gas left and he has the remaining gas that you need to do the ascent and deco. That's what the other 3rd in his tank is for, emergencies.

Closing the isolator does conserve half of your gas. However, the only time this should be done is when you've determined that it's not a regulator problem. Reg failures are 99% more common than a manifold failure, considering the craftmanship of the ones available from DR, Sea Elite and Halcyon. It takes a lot of force to break a manifold. If this is something your concerned about, I would work on my skills as a whole to prevent hitting the ceiling.

In the event of a reg failure, shutting the isolator limits you to half of your gas. Shutting down the offending post solves the leak problem, leaving the total gas supply available to you.

If you have already shut down a post because of a reg failure, you can still donate to your buddy and be able to exit on 2 regs.

Let me give a little senario:

Diver A has a HP seat fail on the right post, so it gets shut down and he switches to the backup reg. Now, what happens when his buddy, Diver B, hits the ceiling and has a complete gass loss?
Can they both make it out? Buddy breathing is too slow and cumbersome to exit efficiently on the remaining gas.

They can get out and do deco as if there was no reg failure. The donor gets on the working reg and the buddy gets the failed reg. I know what your thinking, why in the hell would the OOG diver get the broken reg? The reg is broken, but not useless. The OOG diver can now get behind the donor and feather the knob of the bad reg, giving him gas when he needs it.

If the isolator was shut in this situation and only half the gas was conserved, there would not be enough gas for both divers to make it out, even on 3rds.

Just my 2 cents. I hope this answers a few of your questions.
 
Deep:
I understand that in a problem you would isolate first and analyse second. With the isolator closed I am one step ahead, I can go right to figuring out which tank is leaking. I have not added steps but removed them. In an emergency I would do the same things as you, except I don't need to reach back for the isolator. In fact, if I have enough gas in the tank that is not free flowing and I am in open water, I may not even turn off the leaking tank and just head for my first deco stop. No reaching required.

I shouldn't have to touch my isolator during a dive. I dive as if the tanks are independant. I swap tanks by changing between second stages. My long hose is my octo and is bungeed to my left tank.

You are right, it is not hard to figure out which tank is leaking with one SPG. I never meant to imply that was a problem (I didn't did I? I am sorry if I did).

My problem is after you have shut down the leaking tank. Say you just shut down the left post, now you don't know how much gas you have. Again, you are right your deco gas isn't nessecarily your back gas (but may be).
 
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