Isn't scuba supposed to be fun too?

[ScubaSteve1962]

It'd be rather dull if every forum here on Scubaboard was full of posts that all reiterated the fun people were having:

"I dove with split fins today.... it was fun!"
"Glad to hear you had so much fun!"

What's wrong with split fins?

This discussion has reminded me of some not so good experiences that didn't take the fun out of scuba

1) Discover scuba: Jumped in the water mask immediately flooded, was told I wasn't clearing it properly 3 times before they realized I had a bad mask! Didn't make me not want to do it again, just let me know I need to buy my own equipment.

2) Padi training: could float to save my life, sunk like a rock. Didn't make me want to quit, made me practice until I passed 2 months later.

3) OW training: did a shore dive off steps in Waikiki, 6 to 7 foot waves and boat traffic. Got knocked around trying to get out of the water. And all of this was with a broken ankle. Didn't make want to quit just let me know I'd rather boat dive than shore dive.

and there are a couple more, but out of all these things that happen, they don't top the relaxed feeling I get when underwater, makes it all fun and worth the effort.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What's wrong with split fins?

Nothing ... lots of people use them and love them. I started out with a pair of Apollo Biofins, and loved them too ... until I reached a point in my diving where they were not the appropriate tool for the job I wanted to do.

What one needs to realize is that like most things they have advantages and drawbacks. When people point out the drawbacks, it's inevitably taken by some as a knock on the fin. It's usually not ... but rather just someone pointing out that they're not the panacea they're often marketed as being. Sometimes the person pointing that out is someone like myself, who enjoyed them in the limited capacity they're useful in, and recognizing in the person I'm replying to someone who wants to take their diving beyond those limitations. But rather than taking it in that context, some people ... usually people who own split fins ... want to take it personally. Can't help it ... like a lot of equipment, split fins work well for the recreational diver who doesn't want to work that hard, who isn't going to be pushing heavy loads, who wants a fin that's easy to kick (perhaps someone who cramps easily or isn't in great shape) ... and for that person, split fins are the appropriate choice. If you want to learn some precision kicks ... like helicopter or back kicks ... splits aren't the optimal choice. Oh, you can make them helicopter OK ... I did, anyway ... but not as easily as a good, stiff blade fin. It's the wrong tool for that job. Back kicks ... well, I keep reading here on SB where people say they can do them in splits ... I never could, and I've yet to actually see someone do it. So I'm skeptical about the claim.

But expressing those limitations aren't a knock on the fin ... it's nothing more than a recognition that different styles are better for some things than others. That said, there's also a lot of misinformation about splits ... that they create silt, for example. Sure they do ... if you overkick them, which is easy to do in a fin that doesn't offer much resistance. But if you bend your knees to get the fin up off the bottom, and keep your fins inside the slipstream, you won't silt with them. I demonstrated this to a student wearing splits less than two weeks ago, in fact ... and in an area where a stay thought tends to produce silt.

What needs to happen in these conversations is that people need to stop taking things personally ... and people who have no experience with the equipment should just kick back and let those who do talk about it. But that's a lot of expectation for internet conversation ... so as with most things, it's useful to have several grains of salt handy when you engage in these discussions ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[randytay]

In my work, I encounter many brilliant people who are absolutely convinced that they are right and there is no other way to do thing than the way they do them. My observation is that the more zealously held the conviction, the less emprical evidence is generally behind the claim. I think we are fortunate that diving is such a safe sport, but the (good) thing about this is that there is no way to prove that any of us is right. There is absolutely no evidence that one agency produces safer divers or that GUI/DUI methods make safer divers. I don't care who you are, how many dives you have, what equipment you use or what agency you may belong to or have been thrown out of. All you have to offer me is your opinion, based on your personal experience and it is up to me to decide what to do with that. Yes, I have the privilege of my own arrogance in believing what I do is right for me. On the other hand, if I have something to offer you, I do so because I want you to have the benefit of my experience to decide if it is right for you. I won't look down on you if you don't take it

What does Graphic User Interface and a dry suit manufacturer got to do with this thread? BTW, what was offered to you was merely the benefit of their experience and if you don't take it, I'm pretty sure they won't look down on you, just maybe chastise you on Scubaboard

 

[DivemasterDennis]

freewillie has it exactly right in my opinion. Scuba diving is fun, but as Jim points out and as I like to say, it is serious fun. I am a recreational diver with professional credentials. My wife and I have done some very challenging dives, but we dive for fun. And we have fun. I have led dives with casual vacation divers who have fun, as I work hard to facilitate that outcome. Yet I still advocate being an active diver and learning on every dive. No doubt the little leaguers have fun, but I think the ones who get hits and make good plays in the filed are probably enjoying their experience more than those who just "get their turn." So too in scuba. However, we do have those in our sport, and in our scuba board community, who advocated a certain way of doing things (their way), and who eat sleep and breathe scuba. There is room for them along with the casual recreational diver. Heck, I wrote a book called "The Scuba Snobs Guide to Diving Etiquette," advocating what I think is right ( though the primary purpose is to entertain). I do it again in Book 2 coming out this summer. But the point is that we have room for freewillies' casual diver friends and for the hardcore techies. I have dove with both kinds of divers, without getting in fights or arguments. I don't intend to fight on scubaboard. I will, however, be careful to clearly state my views as my views, not as objective fact. I learn from all the threads here on scubaboard, from new divers and from the "experts." Thank you all. Just be nice, know the difference between opinion and fact, and we can all live in peace here on the board together.
DivemasterDennis

 

[Dbmata]

The thread that seems to offend you was started by a small group of tech divers that enjoy sharing the love of the game with others that wish to listen, no more than that.

Specifically who do you mean by "you"?

If you meant me, then naw, just an observation. I saw the point of the thread and left it alone, spending my time trying to learn about fins and how to stop some cramping.

See, the neat thing is, there is only one way to shoot a gun, shoot a deer, shoot a camera... until someone tells you another way. It's too bad there has to be a community split, and it seems to be driven by the DIR mentality. I get it, but overall, it makes more sense to be a unified group, present a friendly face, and then offer education to those who seek it and accept those who need to make mistakes, hoping you don't get to read about them later in books like "Diver Down." Oh well.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

What's wrong with split fins?

Everyone knows they will kill you. I read it on the internet, so it must be true.

 

[Bombay High]

There is one difference between scuba diving and little league baseball - there are not that many ways to kill yourself playing little league baseball.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's too bad there has to be a community split, and it seems to be driven by the DIR mentality.

You are mistaken ... it's driven by people who have an investment in doing things a certain way ... whether that's DIR, PADI, or some other method. You'll find that some of the strongest opinions on ScubaBoard have nothing to do with DIR ... and in fact, are rather anti-DIR in their approach to diving. What drives community splits isn't any one "mentality" ... it's mostly driven by people who think they have something to prove, independent of what that something might be.

I get it, but overall, it makes more sense to be a unified group, present a friendly face, and then offer education to those who seek it and accept those who need to make mistakes, hoping you don't get to read about them later in books like "Diver Down." Oh well.

... or the Incidents and Accidents forum. Unfortunately, we read about people who made mistakes and paid the ultimate price all too often ... and when you sift through the BS you'll often come to realize that the initial cause of the accident had nothing to do with how the diver trained, or what equipment they were using ... but rather it had everything to do with decisions they made that ultimately led to a bad conclusion.

People often overlook the mental aspects of diving ... because it's supposed to be fun. And it is fun ... right up to the point where it becomes too much fun. Then you'd better hope you have the tools to cope with the situation you've put yourself into by having that much fun. The skills and equipment you've accumulated through your training and your gear choices are only part of that toolkit ... and not even the most important part ... that would be the ability to take your fun seriously enough to keep yourself out of a bad situation in the first place. And that has more to do with you than it does anybody else's opinion of what's right for you. The "community" can't keep you safe ... only you can do that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Dbmata]

... it's mostly driven by people who think they have something to prove, independent of what that something might be.

Yeah, hence my previous comment about zealots and echo chambers. Granted, I'm new, so I've only seen the DIR/GUE stuff so far. I'm sure with enough time I'll see a more balanced representation. It begs to be said though that it's not that bad.

... or the Incidents and Accidents forum. Unfortunately, we read about people who made mistakes and paid the ultimate price all too often ... and when you sift through the BS you'll often come to realize that the initial cause of the accident had nothing to do with how the diver trained, or what equipment they were using ... but rather it had everything to do with decisions they made that ultimately led to a bad conclusion.

People often overlook the mental aspects of diving ... because it's supposed to be fun. And it is fun ... right up to the point where it becomes too much fun. Then you'd better hope you have the tools to cope with the situation you've put yourself into by having that much fun. The skills and equipment you've accumulated through your training and your gear choices are only part of that toolkit ... and not even the most important part ... that would be the ability to take your fun seriously enough to keep yourself out of a bad situation in the first place. And that has more to do with you than it does anybody else's opinion of what's right for you. The "community" can't keep you safe ... only you can do that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

That's what I think is attracting me to diving. Simple as you want it, as difficult as you want it, and instant feedback when it comes to PSGWSP. You are ultimately responsible for yourself, in an alien environment and comes down precisely to your training, self control, knowledge, and will. (And whether or not Jaws has your number.)

Makes me think of hunting in a swamp in winter. It's easy, safe, until it's not safe due to stupid choices. Then it can and will eat you alive. I know as an outsider to this community, I find a bit of snippiness and I tune it out because whether or not the knowledge is sound, the presentation leaves a lot to be desired and is a turn off for outsiders like me. *shrug*

Just some free thoughts.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

That's what I think is attracting me to diving. Simple as you want it, as difficult as you want it, and instant feedback when it comes to PSGWSP. You are ultimately responsible for yourself, in an alien environment and comes down precisely to your training, self control, knowledge, and will. (And whether or not Jaws has your number.)

Good points. When folks are aware of their choices and consequences of them, it really is then THEIR choice.

One caveat is the "you don't know what you don't know" issue - an overlooked or never-thought-about item that could have serious consequences. Since others may have paid a high price to learn the lesson, a bit of education can help avoid paying the high price a second time. SB is pretty good about passing on these type of lessons learned.

Another is the whole issue of "trust-me" dives. Going with a professional (another diver who you pay) does not guarantee you will survive. It may increase the odds, but that is about it. NWGrateful Diver metioned the mental aspect - part of which is knowing your own limits and comfort zone. Discussing this with the hired professional, and being comfortable with the dive plan will both move the dive out of the "trust-me" category into the "expand my envelope of experience" category.

Then you live to do it again another day, increasing the fun.