Is there an instructor crisis?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Lift prices up in recent years?

The Vail Resorts model - but before the season- earlier you buy the less you pay

Full epic pass this year is about $950 for all access. Fifteen years ago a season pass was about $2250. Walk up is demand based, this season about $275

Private lesson this year, demand based, mostly $1350

Instructors in this thread - why do you work for so little?

I have a question for you. How much money do you think goes to the ski patrol and instructors? Do you think they are getting a proportional increase of that pie?

 

[Wookie]

I have a question for you. How much money do you think goes to the ski patrol and instructors? Do you think they are getting a proportional increase of that pie?

Ski patrol are mainly volunteers, no one has to take lessons to ski.

It’s still a false equivalency.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Ski patrol are mainly volunteers, no one has to take lessons to ski.

It’s still a false equivalency.

That's not true. I was a volunteer patroller and all ski areas had pros. No one volunteers during the week. Some ski areas are purely pro.

This was more a discussion about the rising revenue of ski areas and the growing costs of taking lessons.

So I do see a relevancy. Patrollers, instructors, lift ops have never been paid well, btw

 

[runsongas]

@wetb4igetinthewater indeed has it at around 21.50/hr this season for vail. but its seasonal for most and housing costs really hurt unless if you landed one of the subsidized housing units at the resort or were willing to take up extra time commuting. but it has the same attraction as being a recreational scuba instructor in southeast asia or the caribbean. make enough to get by, get paid to do something you love until the shininess wears off and life gets in the way, and get to be in a pretty great area instead of behind a cubicle.

 

[Wookie]

@wetb4igetinthewater indeed has it at around 21.50/hr this season for vail. but its seasonal for most and housing costs really hurt unless if you landed one of the subsidized housing units at the resort or were willing to take up extra time commuting. but it has the same attraction as being a recreational scuba instructor in southeast asia or the caribbean. make enough to get by, get paid to do something you love until the shininess wears off and life gets in the way, and get to be in a pretty great area instead of behind a cubicle.

And if you forced folks to pay for lessons by denying them access to the lift without being certified, I’m sure that there would be no ski lifts.

I worked in a resort where the resort course was free. It was at max capacity every day. It included a boat ride and fills and instruction.

The time spent for certification, not to mention cost of certification, all invented by agencies, is the barrier to entry, not low pay for instructors.

 

[TravelGas]

That's not true. I was a volunteer patroller and all ski areas had pros. No one volunteers during the week. Some ski areas are purely pro.

This was more a discussion about the rising revenue of ski areas and the growing costs of taking lessons.

So I do see a relevancy. Patrollers, instructors, lift ops have never been paid well, btw

I am an active Ski Patroller who just finished my 14 season. Things have changed a lot over that time. We used to have about 36 volunteer patrollers on the weekends, this past season was 8-12 volunteers. When there was 36 or more vollies the Pros were not allowed to work on the weekends, now many weekends the Paid outnumber the volunteers. I am sure for next season another large group of veteran Patrollers won't return due to the mountain working the remaining patrollers harder and longer to make up for being short handed, which only makes people not want to come to work even more. The Mgt. had it so good for so long getting free labor, they are slow to recognize that society has changed and the days of getting people to work for free while giving them little are over. Morale is in the toilet bowl.
It is fair to say that all mountains across the country are short of Ski Patrollers both paid and volunteer. The Industry is also partly to blame, when Mountain staff go to another resort on their day off to ski, some resorts offer an Industry discount typically 30-40%, some resorts give no discount. Years ago, those same visiting staff were given a comp' pass at no charge or were given 50% off when lift tickets cost a fraction of what they do today. Many resorts, Vail owned or not are now well over $200 a day and some are now over $300 per day, remember the staff makes $18-22 hr. Many of the visiting Ski Patrol would report an accident and stop at accident scene and render assessment and aid to the patient. I know I have many times.

The paid patrollers start at $18 hr, which is low, most resorts pay a little more than that. As a blanket statement, people no longer want to volunteer for anything and they really don't want to work either. The American work ethic or willingness to volunteer is far from what it once was. We lost a large number of Patrollers during Covid who did not want to risk their lives for a volunteer job who did not even offer them the Covid Vaccination or they were older people who felt this was as good a time as any to retire. New York State does not recognize Ski Patrol as First Responders. We went from about 125 Paid and volunteer before Covid, 2022/2023 were were at 78 names on the roster, but far less who actually showed up to do any work. I am one foot out the door and can see the end for me is coming.

To volunteer your time is expensive, gas, tolls, equipment purchase and up keep, hotel/motel, rent for the season or own a second home ski house, time away from the family. The job is very hard on equipment and does not last. My mountain has said they expect to go all paid staff since the volunteers showing up are not reliable, to which many say you get what you pay for.

The mountain had a record year this year for attendance and for profit, but as someone said above, it does not trickle down to the staff. The Ski Instructors are all paid and they do well and also get tips. As for the 36 Vail Resorts, I know that in Feb. of 2022 they had to raise their Ski Patrol starting pay to $21 hr, the most I have heard any patroller making is $25 hr. It's not just that it's hard to get people to volunteer to Ski Patrol, it is no different trying to get Volunteer Firefighters or Vollie EMS staff, etc. People don't want to volunteer anymore. As you likely know, many local Fire Districts have tried to offer property tax reductions to members, free college tuition at that County's community College, adding them to the State pension fund, for example for each 5 years you volunteer, you get one year credit in the State pension fund and other inducements to encourage folks to Volunteer, with limited success. More Fire Districts have gone to paid per diem to staff their EMS system, it is the way of the future and the cost of people not volunteering anymore is passed onto property owners in their Fire District tax bill.

 

[TravelGas]

Lift prices up in recent years?

The Vail Resorts model - but before the season- earlier you buy the less you pay

Full epic pass this year is about $950 for all access. Fifteen years ago a season pass was about $2250. Walk up is demand based, this season about $275

Private lesson this year, demand based, mostly $1350

Instructors in this thread - why do you work for so little?

If it weren't for the Epic or Ikon pass I think the resorts would be in big financial trouble. The price of one day lift tickets has ski rocketed in the last 3 years. For example, my resort was always $68 for a one day pass with no increase for more years than I remember, now it is $100 per day. For decades there was Coke Wednesdays, bring a Coke product, Diet Coke, Sprite, Coke, whatever and at the ticket window you will get a $20 lift ticket. Now that decades old tradition is gone. The Epic and
Ikon passes that are marketing tools that recognize that the resorts are pricing themselves out and many customers who take advantage of those passes would not be able to afford to ski if they weren't getting the large discount that those passes offer. My resort is no different, the volume of season passes they sell now as compare to pre Covid is up tremendously. The Ski Instructors do well, it's the Ski Patrollers and other mountain staff like the lift operators who do not do well and struggle just to pay the high rental rates on their apartments near all resorts. What does $20 an hour for the avg. Ski Patroller really buy?

 

[JonnieB]

Duh... for free air and cause they "love introducing people to the underwater world"

Don't know any instructors here in Phuket who work for free air; and some don't even like new divers.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

If it weren't for the Epic or Ikon pass I think the resorts would be in big financial trouble. The price of one day lift tickets has ski rocketed in the last 3 years. For example, my resort was always $68 for a one day pass with no increase for more years than I remember, now it is $100 per day. For decades there was Coke Wednesdays, bring a Coke product, Diet Coke, Sprite, Coke, whatever and at the ticket window you will get a $20 lift ticket. Now that decades old tradition is gone. The Epic and
Ikon passes that are marketing tools that recognize that the resorts are pricing themselves out and many customers who take advantage of those passes would not be able to afford to ski if they weren't getting the large discount that those passes offer. My resort is no different, the volume of season passes they sell now as compare to pre Covid is up tremendously. The Ski Instructors do well, it's the Ski Patrollers and other mountain staff like the lift operators who do not do well and struggle just to pay the high rental rates on their apartments near all resorts. What does $20 an hour for the avg. Ski Patroller really buy?

I think they call that phenomenon Demand Destruction.

 

[TravelGas]

Perhaps, my understanding and experience with Ski Resorts/ Ski Patrol/Volunteering as a First Responder is greater than my knowledge or experience in the Scuba world …