Is there a valid reason for a pony bottle

[rjack321]

I dive with a buddy (sometimes an instabuddy who takes off where I have no intent on following or is otherwise not safe - so the potential to be somewhat “alone” is there), I watch my air and always plan on surfacing with 500 psi. But sh_t can happen that you self-righteous lot seem to think can always be addressed by gear maintenance and your buddy (who as above is not always a good buddy).

For me, there are ridiculous opinions on responsible use of a pony as an extra safety device from some here and I’m done engaging in this silliness.

BTW - my understanding is that, here in NJ, dive boats require at least a pony for redundancy - single tanks not allowed. So I guess all those ops and divers here exhibit poor gas planning and buddy skills. Ridiculous...

You don't have to dive off my boat. There are a couple of local charters who will take you and your pony out. And you can use your "surface with 500psi" gas plan (which is not a plan to me). Since this is the basic forum I will suggest reading up on the myriad of rock bottom or minimum gas planning threads to learn the basics of gas planning. In a nutshell 500psi might be enough, but it in all likelihood is an inadequate amount of gas to get you and an OOA buddy to the surface at a reasonable ascent rate.

In my 24 years of diving (including a few where I actually had a pony bottle myself) the one gear hint that someone is a crappy buddy is slanted overwhelmingly towards pony bottle users. Its a data point of one and I use it - at least on my boat.

 

[Rred]

"The UK, I would suggest is probably closer to New York.

As a general rule, UK diving involves.

1. Cold water diving
2. Low visibility
3. Low Light Levels.
>>>Yes, to those three.
4. Higher risk of entrapment/entanglement <<<< higher for California in kelp areas, probably.
5. Deeper
6. Compulsory decompression
7. Strong Tidal Waters
>>>No, to those four.

Unless you are penetrating wrecks, as opposed to the "wreckage" dives that are common, there's no risk of entanglement. Although, some wreckage did grab my leg in shallow water and I did pull free easily, that was the last time I wore a knife on my calf--the wreck took it.

And compulsory decompression?? Absolutely not! There's plenty to dive while staying above the NCD limits off the shores of NY. Especially if you're shore diving off Long Island, common for lobstering or fish. Now, take a boat out to a full wreck in the Atlantic...sure, you can get in deeper. [pun intended] There have even been problems with divers playing with live shells on unstable warships. Very few US divers bother to take the PADI "Unstable and exotic explosive ordnance recovery and remediation" course. Very damn few.

 

[Gareth J]

Its not a safety device.

Consider the conditions that would require the use of a pony bottle. You've a) had a for serious equipment failure, b) lost your buddy and c) are unable to perform a CESA. All three of those things have to happen at the SAME TIME.

Equipment failures are rare, but do happen. Losing your buddy isn't acceptable. Search for a minute then up you go. If you can't do a CESA, you're not rec diving and need proper redundancy.

So what's the pony bottle for, exactly? So you can get away with not sticking with your buddy? So you can neglect your equipment? So you can bump up against the "limits"?

Which one of those things is acceptable? In my view...none of them. The "safety device" is just a pass to allow you to do unsafe and unacceptable things. No thx.

In reverse order,

c/ CESA is a last resort action. Rapid ascents should be avoided if at all possible.
b/ If you dive blue water, you probably have visibility in excess of 3ft. If you dive green, vis can be 6 inches, with no or little warning.
a/ Things fail, even in the aerospace industry.

A piece of equipment, that is light and takes little space that mitigates the above - seems sensible to me.

Small interesting point.
If you instruct as a commercial instructor i.e. You receive financial gain (work for a school or are an independent professional). The HSE ACOP requires you to carry a redundant gas source (so most instructors will carry a pony as a minimum). You fall under HSE remit specifically the Diving at Work Regulations 1997.
If you are carrying out scientific (including photography) or archeological work (i.e. employed by an institution or other organisation), you will be required to carry a pony as a minimum - even in 2m of water.

If you are a volunteer instructor, scientific diver, (photographer,) or archeologist you don't need to carry a redundant gas source by HSE - you are not at work so not covered by the regulation. However, if you are on a scientific site, or archeological site there is a high likelyhood that they will require you to carry a redundant gas source.

 

[Rred]

It involves a significant risk of DCS,

I agree with you as to terrible options. But the fact remains, if the alternative is drowning, all other options are worth considering. As an old fossil I'm required to keep using my fossil BC with a CO2 emergency inflator on it. I plan to never use that ripcord because I'm not quite sure just how uncontrolled that ascent might be. But, as a courtesy to any SAR teams out looking for my body, I think I'd pull it so they could find me and go home in time for dinner.
Returning to the original question...I still believe that the massive push for pony bottles has got nothing to do with safety. The J valve was once embraced as being one stop short of a messiah, and it still does a good job at a minimal price without continual ongoing annual upkeep fees. The pony bottle? Yes, for deep and tech divers and some others, certainly is logical. But for the industry as a whole...your LDS gets to SELL a new tank, a new holder, a complete second regulator set, and most important of all, they get to do another annual VIP and quint-annual hydro "forever" and make money every year as if they'd sold a subscription plan. For the average non-decompression open-water diver, all the pony bottle accomplishes is giving their LDS a steady revenue stream.
Of course the problem today is that even if a diver says "Hey, even NOAA and the USN say a J is a good redundant air supply" (as the USN manual does say) the industry has done such a good job of FUD that there's only one source left, and they're selling so little volume that the price of a pony is actually less. Considering that a J used to be nominally more than a K valve even in the 80's...Wow. Great FUD job, from the dive industry.
Or maybe...it is one of those macho things. You know, Joe Diver sees Rambo Wears a Pony! And immediately needs to wear one too?

 

[Rred]

the HSE ACOP requires you to carry a redundant gas source

Not unreasonable when commercial regulations require a simplified "one size fits all" approach. But our own USN also requires a "redundant" air source for contractors, envisioning the fact that regardless of water depth they may be involved in black water diving, just as USN divers may be. And if you are working by feel, you simply can't read an SPG. Somewhat more charitably, or perhaps because there is less weight, less bulk, less stuff to carry and inventory and maintain, the USN also specifically allows and accepts (and often requires for their own standard use) a simple J valve.

I know, HSE, PADI, all these folks are much smarter than the USN when it comes to diving matters. That just could be.

 

[Gareth J]

I know, HSE, PADI, all these folks are much smarter than the USN when it comes to diving matters. That just could be.

HSE is the British equivalent of OSHA.

I don't think a J valve complies under HSE. The independent gas source needs to be fully independent i.e self contained. Similarly, a Y valve doesn't comply, because its the same bottle of gas.

 

[tursiops]

Both of the available Solo diving courses require a redundant gas supply (not just a redundant first or second stage); pony is the most likely and popular. I wonder why diving within those certs needs such a thing? Maybe, because sometimes stuff happens?

 

[JXT71]

You've a) had a for serious equipment failure, b) lost your buddy and c) are unable to perform a CESA. All three of those things have to happen at the SAME TIME.
Equipment failures are rare, but do happen. Losing your buddy isn't acceptable. Search for a minute then up you go. If you can't do a CESA, you're not rec diving and need proper redundancy.

What happens if we change the scenario to a solo diver?

A) My main concern, regardless of how unlikely it is to happen, B) Don't have one, and C).... Would I be able to perform a CESA while I'm diving solo? Yes. Would I want to? No, especially towards the end. And because it sucks. CESA would also imply that it's now an emergency situation - as in, out of my control, or I didn't plan for it, and I have no other option. That's not acceptable to me. I absolutely have something planned to save myself in the event something/everything goes wrong. I actually put a lot of thought into my dive plans. More than some posters here would give anyone credit for. My pony has one purpose: in the event of a catastrophic fail of my primary air supply, the pony let's me calmly but immediately terminate the dive. No need for worry, no need to rush, no need to CESA.

Using a pony is a sign of poor gas planning? They aren't supposed to be part of that - they essentially don't exist until a significant issue arises with your primary air supply. It does not extend a dive, it allows one to end without further event. I check my SPG often on a dive, and I usually hit the surface with 700+psi... how wasteful!
Using a pony is a sign of poor buddy skills? I wouldn't have a pony on a buddy dive. In the absence of a buddy, I'd say it shows great buddy skills - you made your own. Hell, you clipped it to your harness. You'll always know where it is no matter the vis.

 

[Joneill]

You don't have to dive off my boat. There are a couple of local charters who will take you and your pony out. And you can use your "surface with 500psi" gas plan (which is not a plan to me). Since this is the basic forum I will suggest reading up on the myriad of rock bottom or minimum gas planning threads to learn the basics of gas planning. In a nutshell 500psi might be enough, but it in all likelihood is an inadequate amount of gas to get you and an OOA buddy to the surface at a reasonable ascent rate.

In my 24 years of diving (including a few where I actually had a pony bottle myself) the one gear hint that someone is a crappy buddy is slanted overwhelmingly towards pony bottle users. Its a data point of one and I use it - at least on my boat.

When you make assumptions, you can look really silly - I don’t use a pony. I was just defending the responsible use of one (which likely means carrying but never using). I also did not share my gas planning - just said my usual intent is to get to the surface with at least 500 psi. So keep on making assumptions...

 

[Fastmarc]

I keeping reading this thread because I do not want to miss that historical moment when someone will change their position after reading one of these posts.
I feel it's near. I can feel it...