Is the PADI SMB specialty a waste of money?

[boulderjohn]

You were not raised in the environment where everyone gets a trophy for everything they do. You just have to understand that, for some people the card is more important than the skill.

I know that is a nice cliché that people like to toss around, but I don't think there is a whole lot of truth in it.

I just measured my stack of certification cards, and it is just about 2 inches high. I only need a small percentage of them, like the Overhead DPV card I have to show to run a scooter at Ginnie Springs. The rest were just something that came with the training I got. I took a class and paid for it because I wanted the training, and I got a card when I did it, whether I wanted it or not.

As Ii said above and people don't want to recognize it, there is a legitimate reason for it. The card signifies that it was an approved course with an approved and predictable curriculum and not just something somebody made up. The primary benefit is not to the student but to the instructor who can defend those procedures in case of an accident by saying that he or she was just following the standards approved by a recognized agency.

There seems to be an underlying thinking in this thread that professional instructors should not be paid for what they do. They should volunteer their services so that all students can learn whatever they want without having to pay for it. Why should that be different from the rest of the world of instruction? When I was in Boy Scouts and learned something, I got a merit badge. When I graduated from high school, I got a diploma. I have taken an enormous number of courses of many kinds in many places. I am having a hard time thinking of any that did not provide some sort of certificate when I was done. Why should scuba be different?

 

[Wookie]

There seems to be an underlying thinking in this thread that professional instructors should not be paid for what they do. They should volunteer their services so that all students can learn whatever they want without having to pay for it. Why should that be different from the rest of the world of instruction? When I was in Boy Scouts and learned something, I got a merit badge. When I graduated from high school, I got a diploma. I have taken an enormous number of courses of many kinds in many places. I am having a hard time thinking of any that did not provide some sort of certificate when I was done. Why should scuba be different?

When certification agencies give away c-cards, than the comparison between merit badges and diplomas can be made. When you graduated college, you also got a diploma, but don't try to tell me it was free. I also have stacks of c-cards, mostly because I had course director friends who had to issue them to get their con ed up. That's a whole different story/problem.

Proving proficiency at some skill by showing off a certification is indeed valid. As I am back in the market for a day job, I am realizing just how important all of the courses for professional mariner I took, courses for regulator repair, courses for environmental compliance. Not so much courses for being a professional instructor, although I included them as I applied to be an instructor for the Coast Guard, and developing lesson plans is a part of the evaluation process.

So I guess I have to back track a little after giving it some thought. I still believe that certain skills should be taught as a part of an OW course. Buoyancy and dSMB deployment are included in those skills. But until we make teaching a level playing field across the board, if you are in a situation where SMB deployment is necessary, being able to show someone that someone, somewhere says you are proficient is maybe not a bad thing.

But I still think it's a basic skill that should be taught alongside mask remove and replace.

 

[stuartv]

being able to show someone that someone, somewhere says you are proficient is maybe not a bad thing.

I would like to know of the dive charter operator who would allow someone to do a dive oh, except wait, you can't go because you don't have an SMB C card.

I do agree that deployment of an SMB from depth should just be a standard part of some other classes, though. I'm not sold on making it part of OW. But, as Deep is one of the required dives in AOW, I think SMB from depth should be required in AOW, Deep, Wreck, and Boat Diver (at least - maybe also Night, Navigation, and Search and Recovery?).

If you buy into the reasons why OW is as short and stripped-down as it is, then you should agree that SMB deployment from depth is not right to add in to OW. If you don't buy into the whole "condensed OW" program, then you would probably agree that there is actually a lot more than just SMB deployment that should be included in OW. But then that's a different cat to skin.

I feel like people who meet, but do not exceed, the standards for OW (in PADI's case, the standards prior to adding any SMB stuff to OW) are unlikely to really be ready to deal with a reel or spool and an SMB at depth.

If someone really wants to learn how to deploy an SMB from depth, but really does NOT want to step up to taking AOW or one of the other courses where they could learn it, I would tell them to look it up on YouTube, watch a video on how to do it, then go get some pool time from one of their local shops and practice it on their own. If they can't learn it that way, then they probably really SHOULD take AOW and get more education than just how to shoot a bag.

I mean, do you really think someone who has 6 total dives under their belt - 4 OW checkout dives and 2 dives where they learned about SMBs - should be doing the kind of dives where you might need to deploy an SMB from depth? To me, that is what an SMB Specialty C card is setting up.

 

[Wookie]

If you buy into the reasons why OW is as short and stripped-down as it is, then you should agree that SMB deployment from depth is not right to add in to OW. If you don't buy into the whole "condensed OW" program, then you would probably agree that there is actually a lot more than just SMB deployment that should be included in OW. But then that's a different cat to skin.

I emphatically do not buy into the reasons so stated. I am a firm believer in giving a diver enough tools to complete their dives safely and competently in conditions they are likely to encounter. That includes dSMB deployment in Florida, Drysuit in Vancouver, and buoyancy regardless of location. One on one, 4 or 5 20 minute training dives may be enough to learn (but not become proficient) those skills. 8:1 is not, but then, I'm not trying to make a living at this. I'm trying to make divers.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I emphatically do not buy into the reasons so stated. I am a firm believer in giving a diver enough tools to complete their dives safely and competently in conditions they are likely to encounter. That includes dSMB deployment in Florida, Drysuit in Vancouver, and buoyancy regardless of location. One on one, 4 or 5 20 minute training dives may be enough to learn (but not become proficient) those skills. 8:1 is not, but then, I'm not trying to make a living at this. I'm trying to make divers.

DSMB deployment should also always be taught in the Salish Sea (Vancouver to Seattle).

I'm making several changes to my OW class to ensure that DSMB deployment is taught to all students. Diver0001 has been helpful in a private conversation with sharing how he conducts his courses. I also look to Harry Averill, Jim Lapenta, and Andy Davis.

For me, this has been a good discussion that has challenged me to never allow for just SMB deployment at the surface, no matter how large the class (I will always co-teach from now on, for example). For everyone, especially @Diver0001 I say thank you. This is how the quality of instruction gets raised.

 

[The Chairman]

The initial question is loaded. I would never take nor teach a DSMB specialty course. My OW students have to deploy a sausage on the surface. My AOW students have to shoot it from depth.

I do believe that some instructors 'overteach' at the OW level and end up under or miss teaching. The more skills I have to deal with a student "mastering", the less time I have to make sure they are actually mastered. In addition, students have finite retention and attention spans, and so can easily be overly overwhelmed with too many skills and beucoup knowledge, rendering them dazed and confused. I like how cave diving is taught in four steps and I don't like it when people do them one right after the other. There should be time in there for the student to practice, teaching them patience and making them dedicate time and effort to perfect skills. I won't do a AOW course as an immediate follow up to OW for the same reason. This idea that a newbie diver should be able to negotiate currents, and what not is absurd. There's lots to see shallow and in benign conditions.

 

[boulderjohn]

I would never take nor teach a DSMB specialty course. My OW students have to deploy a sausage on the surface. My AOW students have to shoot it from depth.

So, what would you say if a diver certified by someone other than you came to you and asked you to teach them how to deploy a DSMB safely from depth? Would you refuse to teach them because you believe they should have learned it in a previous course? Would you require them to take another more advanced course that includes DSMB deployment along with the other skills the student is not interested in? If you decided to teach the student what the student is asking you to teach, would you charge for that instruction or provide it for free?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

My OW students have to deploy a sausage on the surface. My AOW students have to shoot it from depth.

After much thought, I do think that since OW certification that students can go out into the world and dive within the constraints of 60 feet and little to no currents, they should have the skills to then boat dive and be able to handle being separated from a guide, and therefore should be able to deploy a DSMB from depth so they reduce the risk of getting hit by some sort of watercraft. So many people after OW certification go on vacation and boat dive. Therefore, deploying a DSMB should be a requirement.

 

[RainPilot]

I'm happy to charge for mentoring. If someone wants to learn something from me, I suggest an appropriate course (like AOW or rescue or nitrox or whatever makes sense for them )

On that course I then teach the frog kick or neutral buoyancy or SMB or whatever. All RAID courses have a pool session dedicated to skill consolidation and buoyancy to integrate crossovers.

If a course isn't appropriate then I take them to the pool and work on it, charging my daily rate. If we do OW dives then they pay all costs for that including lunch and debrief mojitos.

I may be easy but I'm never cheap...

 

[rivers]

I would like to know of the dive charter operator who would allow someone to do a dive oh, except wait, you can't go because you don't have an SMB C card.

I do agree that deployment of an SMB from depth should just be a standard part of some other classes, though. I'm not sold on making it part of OW. But, as Deep is one of the required dives in AOW, I think SMB from depth should be required in AOW, Deep, Wreck, and Boat Diver (at least - maybe also Night, Navigation, and Search and Recovery?).

If you buy into the reasons why OW is as short and stripped-down as it is, then you should agree that SMB deployment from depth is not right to add in to OW. If you don't buy into the whole "condensed OW" program, then you would probably agree that there is actually a lot more than just SMB deployment that should be included in OW. But then that's a different cat to skin.

I feel like people who meet, but do not exceed, the standards for OW (in PADI's case, the standards prior to adding any SMB stuff to OW) are unlikely to really be ready to deal with a reel or spool and an SMB at depth.

If someone really wants to learn how to deploy an SMB from depth, but really does NOT want to step up to taking AOW or one of the other courses where they could learn it, I would tell them to look it up on YouTube, watch a video on how to do it, then go get some pool time from one of their local shops and practice it on their own. If they can't learn it that way, then they probably really SHOULD take AOW and get more education than just how to shoot a bag.

I mean, do you really think someone who has 6 total dives under their belt - 4 OW checkout dives and 2 dives where they learned about SMBs - should be doing the kind of dives where you might need to deploy an SMB from depth? To me, that is what an SMB Specialty C card is setting up.

Being able to deploy a DSMB from depth is a mandatory skill for UK sea dives, from basic open water level through to CCR 100m+ dives. We very rarely ascend back up the shot line. There are a handful of dives where you might ascend up the shot line , and that's if you can find it again. If you're on a drift, you need to have your bag deployed. Open water divers need to know how to put a bag up, because sometimes separation happens.