Is the PADI SMB specialty a waste of money?

[RainPilot]

One of my favourite spots to do ascent training is over a hard coral table in about 4-5m total depth so students are at 3-4m.

From there they pop a dSMB and then we ascend at around a foot or two per minute. Nothing points out buoyancy control faster.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Not me, Mate. Learning a SMB/dSMB is basic skills AFAIC. I teach it for the price of coming to me and asking.

I do thorough DSMB's in AOW, though I am happy to post OW certification work with students nail down their buoyancy, trim, and finning (in preparation for my AOW and longer term, helping them prepare for GUE fundies).

My first adventure dive that they must complete is PPB with non-silting kicks (frog kicks). No one ever completes it in one dive. That's okay. To me, AOW is not completed in 5 dives. Minimum of 10 if they are strong coming in. I think one of my students that I'm currently working with will require about 20 (not including the practice dives I send him to do separate from me). Of course, I make sure my students understand that. If they just want a card, plenty of other instructors out there for them.

I can justify that to PADI as to how I interpret the standards. Students are always happy to have more rigorous training.

I have also made promises to local boat charter captains that if someone comes to them with AOW from me, that they don't have to worry about them. I don't make a penny more this way, but I am much more satisfied helping a diver get solid skills in the water. And I enjoy this kind of teaching (though some students..... )

 

[Patoux01]

I'd like everyone to close their eyes. Imagine an instructor in a warm water location alone with 8 students. Now imagine all of those students deploying DSMBs. If the DSMB is not small and cannot be pulled back down, the DSMB's are going to be at the surface. Picture the entanglements that result from students too close together.

Here in the Puget Sound, I have to manage my students comfort level as they are in 7 mil farmer john wetsuits in mid 40 degree water. People sometimes drop out after OW#1 and take a referral for somewhere warm to conduct the checkout dives.

While I try to have my students dive as long as possible, if they are excessively cold, they are not having fun and probably won't continue diving. Deploying a DSMB in midwater takes some practice, and unless more dives are added to open water, I don't think it is always good idea in cold water with students in wetsuits. Hence I typically have them deploy SMB's at the surface. If I have a strong class (my class back in October was great), I have them close to the bottom deploy a DSMB from a Junior Manta Reel with a 3' DSMB that I pull back down and hand to each student to deploy. I avoid entanglements that way.

If a student uses a number of different reels, different sized DSMB's and has to deploy a DSMB while maintaining depth within a few feet and perform a slow ascent (10 feet/minute) with a finger spool a la GUE fundies style and keep the line taut the whole way, then I do see value in this course, as to truly master it is going to take more than one dive. It is going to take a fair bit of practice. They'll have to have their buoyancy and trim down, as ascending with a finger spool and keeping the line taut isn't easy.

You're picturing an instructor that is in it for the money and try to use that as a justification for poor standards, sounds rather odd to me. It goes hand in hand of course, more students, more money, but most instructors that I know that do well don't do that, surprisingly.

I'm unaware of PADI having a requirement for wetsuits. Your shop could (should?) have a fleet of drysuits of the water is too cold for your divers to learn properly. I know independent instructors here that have agreements with the various shops so they'll grab a drysuit from their fleet for their OW and the student pays the rental (typically 200USD extra).


Launching an SMB is all but difficult, I'm not sure what would require "a good class", it's literally basic buoyancy and no certified diver should have issues doing that.

The main issue with the various tasks that we can encounter during diving is that people think you absolutely need to learn that skill, while you hardly need the basics: kicks, buoyancy and trim. If those are solid, anything else is easy. If your buoyancy is a mess, then launching an SMB suddenly requires training and skills.

 

[Wookie]

Launching an SMB is all but difficult, I'm not sure what would require "a good class", it's literally basic buoyancy and no certified diver should have issues doing that.

I have some neat tricks I teach with it, and no one is done unless their bag is full and erect at the surface and they didn't change depth by more than 3 feet in either direction when shooting. They may use an AP dSMB to meet the requirements if they own one. They may not borrow mine. Sometimes it takes a number of dives to accomplish the task. A flaccid bag is not something anyone can be proud of, I think we can all agree.

 

[RainPilot]

Thanks Frank. Need yet another new keyboard.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You're picturing an instructor that is in it for the money and try to use that as a justification for poor standards, sounds rather odd to me. It goes hand in hand of course, more students, more money,.

I don't think many dive instructors are in it for the money. Many are forced to have max ratios in tropical destinations by the dive operation for which they work. They may themselves be products of zero-to-hero programs. I doubt many of them are on SB either where they seek information/ideas on becoming better instructors. They are often paid by the certifications, so in order to just survive, they will pass students who meet minimal standards. They certify people that they will never see again. I can't entirely fault them for that, but I'd never put myself in that position. But I'm also not a kid who hasn't yet worked for 20+ years with a good career that pays for all my interests.

Around here (meaning Puget Sound), there are a number of cold water instructors who teach on the knees and think it is perfectly acceptable. The buoyancy skills are a mess as a result. No surprise there. But there are also a number who do not.

but most instructors that I know that do well don't do that, surprisingly

Do you think that is representative at of how diving is taught over the rest of the world? I know my local sample isn't.

I'm unaware of PADI having a requirement for wetsuits. Your shop could (should?) have a fleet of drysuits of the water is too cold for your divers to learn properly. I know independent instructors here that have agreements with the various shops so they'll grab a drysuit from their fleet for their OW and the student pays the rental (typically 200USD extra).

PADI doesn't (obviously). And the shop for which I teach only has a few because the majority of customers only want to dive in tropical destinations and want to do their OW locally to not burn their vacation time. So the belief that teaching them in a dry suit isn't worth it (I disagree, but I don't write the checks).

Launching an SMB is all but difficult, I'm not sure what would require "a good class", it's literally basic buoyancy and no certified diver should have issues doing that.

The main issue with the various tasks that we can encounter during diving is that people think you absolutely need to learn that skill, while you hardly need the basics: kicks, buoyancy and trim. If those are solid, anything else is easy. If your buoyancy is a mess, then launching an SMB suddenly requires training and skills.

Launching a DSMB at shallow depths and not changing depth isn't simple. At depth, no problem!

I described what I think would qualify as a good class. Would I teach it? No, as I cover this separately. But I can visualize someone going to an instructor saying that they can't deploy a DSMB to save their life. We all know it is due to their buoyancy issues.

You can talk about "could" and "should" all you want. "Should" is a dangerous word. You have to consider reality.

 

[Scott]

I'd like everyone to close their eyes. Imagine an instructor in a warm water location alone with 8 students. Now imagine all of those students deploying DSMBs. If the DSMB is not small and cannot be pulled back down, the DSMB's are going to be at the surface. Picture the entanglements that result from students too close together.

Trust me, you can get entanglement with just two

Just so I'm clear here.... are we talking about doing one of the 5 dives for AOW as an SMB dive, or are we actually talking about a distinct specialty course? I can see doing it as one of the dives, but not an entire course.

Both and neither
With it being a specialty with PADI, as an instructor you can conduct one of the two dives as an adventure dive towards AOW.
Or you can conduct both dives and issue a DSMB specialty card if you're a DSMB Specialty Instructor
Or you can do neither and just teach the student the skill as part of any dive. <raises hand>

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Trust me, you can get entanglement with just two

Yes! I discovered that the first time when I did this with 2 divers post certification! What I like to do now in AOW with a single student (how I generally like to run the class) is have them deploy a small DSMB on the early dives and use larger DSMB's in later dives during the safety stop. It is optional as requiring it would be a standards violation. Fortunately, they are all in.

 

[Coop42]

Yeah, you can get tangled with just one. Go back to my previous post showing the poor guy messing around with the DSMBon YouTube....

 

[Diver0001]

To someone who definitively knows, what exactly are the current PADI requirements regarding using a surface SMB and a dSMB?

Deploying a surface SMB is hardly a skill and could very easily be done and practiced in OW. Though not rocket science, a dSMB is a bit more complex. @stuartv idea of adding dSMB to existing Adventure Dives would work if PADI would be willing to revise curriculum, that's probably not likely to happen. dSMB as a single Adventure Dive seems OK to me also. I did Deep, Nav, PPB, DPV, and Wreck when I did AOW, dSMB would have been at least as valuable as Wreck was as a single dive. Personally, I don't see dSMB as a freestanding specialty course.

My last PADI training was in 2005. Through OW, AOW, and Rescue, I was never shown, taught, or asked to demonstrate using a dSMB. I learned by watching other divers use a dSMB, obtaining equipment, and practicing myself. I did not have to demonstrate using a dSMB until I took the SDI Solo Diver course. On dive one, deployment was from the primary, on dive two, from the pony.

Craig, the way it works is as follows:

According to the standards, it must be taught at the open water level. The standard requires that the student performs the deployment either under water or on the surface. Assuming a diver has done it underwater during OW then the skill is no longer "new" or needing "introduction". Therefore it can be added as an element to any dive at any level after that at the instructor's discretion. No revision of the curriculum is necessary.

R..