Is PADI Cavern Diver course worth it?

[mathauck0814]

What was the purpose of the deco bottles? You are working with rules of 6ths and no deco according to the standards.

Besides, it's not like you are going to tote those around on a cave dive.

It was mostly just for drilling with on buoyancy while in the cavern. Dropping at the entrance, picking up at the exit, managing buoyancy along the way - not everyone in the class had any tech training in wrecks. For those who did, this was old hat, for the newbies it was just another twist.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

What is often overlooked is that cave diving is a global activity and some cave instructors only teach for one specific environment.

 

[ZephyrNYC]

Yes, I'm a PADI instructor, Marci.
...

NACD and NSS-CDS both require long internships and instructor examinations before an instructor can become a cavern or cave instructor... So by the time the process is done the new cavern instructor has been evaluated by 5 different experienced instructors.

It's rare that I will accept a PADI cavern diver into an intro to cave class because their skills aren't up to the standards I and most other cave instructors who teach for the cave agencies expect. This means if you take a PADI cavern course from a PADI only instructor you will likely have to repeat the cavern course if you decide to move beyond that level. I will accept a PADI card from other instructors that I know are also NACD or NSS-CDS instructors because we all teach the same course. So at that point it doesn't matter what card you get. It is about the instructor. Just make sure the instructor does not only teach for a recreational agency.

Thanks for this useful info. I know that this thread is old and that agencies don't matter, but after reading this thread, I have a couple questions:

1. How do the Cave courses of GUE and UTD compare to NACD's and NSS-CDS's Cave courses?

2. How do TDI's and NAUI's Cavern courses compare to NACD's and NSS-CDS's? What I'm getting at by this second question is, if a diver were to complete a TDI or NAUI Cavern course, would his card be better respected by NACD and NSS-CDS Cave instructors, if presented by a student who is applying to take a Cave course? (I.e. Would the TDI or NAUI Cavern Diver be better prepared to take a Cave course than a PADI Cavern Diver? I would hope so, since they're considered tech agencies, correct?)


Captain Sinbad, which course did you end up taking?

 

[Doby45]

The main point is, it all boils down to the instructor. Your intro to cave instructor will get a feel for you prior to or during the course and those that are quality instructors under many different agencies will know it a skinny minute if the person that taught you Cavern did you a disservice or not. I don't think any cave instructor in the Florida cave country would automatically not accept your TDI or NAUI Cavern card.

I am looking to do my Cavern course soon and I plan to go the TDI route, but my instructor will have the ability to give me my card from TDI or any of the major cave orgs.

 

[boulderjohn]

In theory, I am a PADI Cavern instructor. In practice, not so much. To explain what I mean, let me give a recent situation. I was asked to teach the course to someone who had taken several other courses from me previously. I asked him why he wanted to take the cavern diver course, and it was because he wanted to go on to become fully cave certified. I told him I would not teach the course. I believe that if you are going to go through to full cave certification, you should do the cavern course with someone who can continue with your training.

A cavern instructor like Jim Wyatt can take you as far as you want, because he is a cave instructor. I am not a cave instructor, so I can't take you any further in the instructional process. Even if I were to be the greatest cavern instructor in history (which is, of course, a ridiculous thought), if you went to a cave instructor to further your education and showed my cavern card, I assume that instructor would be suspicious of the quality and essentially make you repeat the course to make sure you were ready to go on.

I will only teach the cavern course to people who are looking to learn the skills to dive caverns and swim throughs safely.

 

[PhatD1ver]

so wait, what I have now read here is that there are no good PADI Cavern instructors unless they are certified by some other organization? or is it that the PADI course really doesn't meet the fundamental requirements of 'cavern' diving.

I got my cavern card (from PADI) while I was near Mabul diving Sipadan. They have this nifty little cavern that starts 20m down, and our instructor didn't cut any corners. (before you call BS, understand that we stayed a week, and had FOUR slots to dive Sipadan in that time period). And when you do cavern, you get THREE dives that day. Before every dive we reviewed all the skills that needed to be demonstrated by both the instructor and performed by us as students.

I'm just wondering what skills that the brain trust here think that I won't have mastered or are going to cause me to flunk out of Intro to Cave? Seems like an awfully broad brush has been used here, and I'd happily show up and demonstrate what I have learned and practiced.

I get so tired of the chest pounding, people saying that if you don't get your basic training from a cave specific agency that your skills aren't up to the mark. Like what? be a little more specific maybe. Because personally, I'd be happy to let critique my abilities, and I'd be embarrassed if I wasn't capable to passing the dive check to take Intro to Cave.

Just saying, I think my cavern instructor did a great job, and forced me to do the same.

 

[Jack Hammer]

so wait, what I have now read here is that there are no good PADI Cavern instructors unless they are certified by some other organization? or is it that the PADI course really doesn't meet the fundamental requirements of 'cavern' diving.

I got my cavern card (from PADI) while I was near Mabul diving Sipadan. They have this nifty little cavern that starts 20m down, and our instructor didn't cut any corners. (before you call BS, understand that we stayed a week, and had FOUR slots to dive Sipadan in that time period). And when you do cavern, you get THREE dives that day. Before every dive we reviewed all the skills that needed to be demonstrated by both the instructor and performed by us as students.

I'm just wondering what skills that the brain trust here think that I won't have mastered or are going to cause me to flunk out of Intro to Cave? Seems like an awfully broad brush has been used here, and I'd happily show up and demonstrate what I have learned and practiced.

I get so tired of the chest pounding, people saying that if you don't get your basic training from a cave specific agency that your skills aren't up to the mark. Like what? be a little more specific maybe. Because personally, I'd be happy to let critique my abilities, and I'd be embarrassed if I wasn't capable to passing the dive check to take Intro to Cave.

Just saying, I think my cavern instructor did a great job, and forced me to do the same.

Kinda funny to call out others for chest pounding while chest pounding about your skills...

I didn't read anything about there being no good PADI cavern instructors, I'm sure there are some. It really is more about the instructor than the agency. Unfortunately, there are many recreational instructors who are barely qualified to teach OW classes let alone one that involves an overhead, yet they can still teach overhead.

PADI cards are typically very easy to attain with minimal requirements of the student. Cave agencies have higher standards in order to pass the class. The message to take from all this one is more likely to get quality cavern training from a full cave instructor than from a recreational instructor.

 

[PhatD1ver]

Kinda funny to call out others for chest pounding while chest pounding about your skills...

I didn't read anything about there being no good PADI cavern instructors, I'm sure there are some. It really is more about the instructor than the agency. Unfortunately, there are many recreational instructors who are barely qualified to teach OW classes let alone one that involves an overhead, yet they can still teach overhead.

PADI cards are typically very easy to attain with minimal requirements of the student. Cave agencies have higher standards in order to pass the class. The message to take from all this one is more likely to get quality cavern training from a full cave instructor than from a recreational instructor.

Really? I'm the student, if a qualified instructor tells me I suck, then I'll back down, but I read this garbage and watch the PADI bashing go on all over this board. I'm not the kind of person that accepts substandard skills for my money. I couldn't really care less about the card, I pay for the training. So if they suck, PADI will hear about it on my survey.

My point is why knock the course if it's 'designed' to teach the skills needed as a pre-requisite to Intro to Cave. And are these instructors that basically require a re-do of Cavern doing it to boost their egos? or is the a credible lack of foundation in the skills being taught in PADI Cavern? and if an instructor is qualified to teach PADI Cavern themselves, and is at the same time denying the validity of that training, shouldn't they be contacting PADI about changing the course standards and training material?

And as far as recreational instructors teaching Cavern, that isn't possible. Things change, and to my knowledge, to teach Cavern for PADI now , the instructor has to be full cave certified. Mine was, and he was no pushover.

 

[Doby45]

so wait, what I have now read here is that there are no good PADI Cavern instructors unless they are certified by some other organization? or is it that the PADI course really doesn't meet the fundamental requirements of 'cavern' diving.

I got my cavern card (from PADI) while I was near Mabul diving Sipadan. They have this nifty little cavern that starts 20m down, and our instructor didn't cut any corners. (before you call BS, understand that we stayed a week, and had FOUR slots to dive Sipadan in that time period). And when you do cavern, you get THREE dives that day. Before every dive we reviewed all the skills that needed to be demonstrated by both the instructor and performed by us as students.

I'm just wondering what skills that the brain trust here think that I won't have mastered or are going to cause me to flunk out of Intro to Cave? Seems like an awfully broad brush has been used here, and I'd happily show up and demonstrate what I have learned and practiced.

I get so tired of the chest pounding, people saying that if you don't get your basic training from a cave specific agency that your skills aren't up to the mark. Like what? be a little more specific maybe. Because personally, I'd be happy to let critique my abilities, and I'd be embarrassed if I wasn't capable to passing the dive check to take Intro to Cave.

Just saying, I think my cavern instructor did a great job, and forced me to do the same.

It would appear that you have missed the meat of this discussion and are going off on a agency bashing tangent. No one is bashing PADI, there was a PADI "class" that was bashed a bit but if what was stated is correct, it needed some bashing. Short of that it has boiled down every single time to the student and the instructor. If you took a PADI cavern course and you rocked it so hard and did so good, then awesome and great for you. When you decide to go to Intro to Cave and contact some instructors I am positive they will "get to know you" by having multiple conversations and more than likely a "skills" type dive will take place. The skills dive will tell them all they need to know about you.

Now some of the confusion probably came from when some people said that some instructors carry a bit more weight as in, Jim. If I have a PADI Cavern card from Jim Wyatt and I go to another instructor in the area they will know that I earned that card to get it from Jim. But if I got to those exact same instructors with a PADI Cavern card from Bob Mainer in Wisconsin, I might get an eyebrow raised. That make a bit more sense?

 

[Doby45]

And for the record:

It does state on the PADI "Specialty Course Instructor Application" that when you pick "Cavern" you must:

"Attach to this application documentation of certification as full Cave Diver by a recognized Cave certification agency (e.g., NSS, NACD)"