Is overweighting of OW students a violation of standards?

[Eric Sedletzky]

Drowning at the surface is an issue. I agree that pinch clips to ditch lead could be problematic. I personally feel that a weight belt is simpler and easier (and safer) to ditch than some of the more "modern" contraptions on a BC. However, the SCUBA diver needs enough lead to be stable at a depth of 3 ft or so with an empty tank. This is not consistent with having ample buoyancy at the surface.

If you are "dumb" enough to strap lead on your body and go in the water, then you damn sure should know how to ditch it.. How's that for simple?

If a diver reaches the surface in a panic, has no snorkel (or can not use one) and they are constrained by scuba gear and there is a rough sea state, then.. it is going to take a considerable amount of kicking or buoyancy to hold their whole head out of the water- which will be necessary for them to calm down and get air. This amount of buoyancy is not going to be attained without ditching lead or inflating a BC.

If a diver it too panicked to inflate the BC or drop lead, then without the help of a buddy or an anchor line or float to grab.. they are gonna be in trouble. Over weighting is bad, but assuming that the diver will always have enough "natural" buoyancy at the surface without a BC and without ditching lead is NOT realistic..

Imagine if they are diving with a big steel tank.. That will hold like 8-9 lbs of air in it at the start of the dive.

If the diver freaks out and shoots to the surface and say for example.. forgot to turn their air on.. and their Bc is fully vented... then they absolutely MUST be heavy.. something on the order of 8-12 lbs or so... A panic diver in this situation is going to have a problem if they can't ditch weight.

What you're describing also is more acurate in a warm water where minimal wetsuit thickness is used. We use at least 7mm wetsuits so we are able to hold stops at 10 or 15 feet and also be buoyant at the surface, even at the beginning of the dive. I guess the curse of thick wetsuits at depth is a blessing on the surface.

Another interesting thing I found out, I have played around in a pool wearing a steel 72 with just a basket harness (no plate) doing ditch and dons at the deep end. I was wearing just swim trunks. I was perfectly neutral at any depth and I could stay on the surface just as easily as any position in the water column since there was nothing compressible. This tells me that I could indeed dive warm water and be neutral at the surface. I would use an aluminum tank, a plastic pack or very light weight aluminum, and a three mil shorty at least. Weights would be selected accordingly to maintain 10-15' stop.
The big beavy steel , yeah that would be more of a challenge. Probably have to minimize or eliminate any added balast and see what it would take to get it as close as possible.
The other thing to remember is salt water is heavier than fresh so we have that in our favor.

As far as difficult to ditch weight style BC's, I don't know what they're thinking. Who designs a unit like that unless they know nothing about how gear should be designed. We're talking about new OW divers using the stuff. The problem with using those units with a weightbelt is they are already cluttery. They hang down and there's not a lot of room to use a belt. I also doubt they would be sold by a salesperson as a unit that could be used with a separate weightbelt. They're designed to be fully weight integrated and in most cases would probably be explained as such.

 

[Ayisha]

Some people are confusing the concept of being GROSSLY overweighted with being slightly overweighted. Being a couple of pounds or even 5 pounds overweighted isn't that big a deal. Being overweighted beyond the lift capacity of your BC is a big deal and potentially hazardous.

 

[WrmBluH2O]

Wow, what a fantastic thread, thank you all. The feedback here, as well as the link to the NASE blog, are tremendously helpful to me.

I completed my OW dives in blue water two weeks ago. Can't wait to work with someone who would help me as I believe I may be over-weighted. (5'6"; 112 lbs.; full coverage 5mm wetsuit; boat dives; salt water; 18lbs. lead, AL80).

Since I run so darn cold, it looks like I need to research instructors in southern U.S. and/or the Caribbean who might be willing to work with me and then travel to them. It wouldn't have to be PPB, part of AOW, or any other cert program, I simply wish to feel confident that I'm working towards optimal weighting and neutral buoyancy.

Thanks again for spending your time continuing to get the message out. There are newbies like me who hear you.

 

[TMHeimer]

Some people are confusing the concept of being GROSSLY overweighted with being slightly overweighted. Being a couple of pounds or even 5 pounds overweighted isn't that big a deal. Being overweighted beyond the lift capacity of your BC is a big deal and potentially hazardous.

Yes.
I didn't re-read everything, but the question of overweighting violating standards probably does depend on how overweight. Who could prove if a student was slightly overweight anyway? Why would an instructor grossly overweight anyone? You do weight checks in the Atlantic in November (or God forbid April) in Nova Scotia and your time spent doing the weight checks is limited in 45F water or less (of course students in wetsuits). They are still done of course, but if it's "close enough for Jazz" as we say in the music business....

 

[boulderjohn]

Can't wait to work with someone who would help me as I believe I may be over-weighted. (5'6"; 112 lbs.; full coverage 5mm wetsuit; boat dives; salt water; 18lbs. lead, AL80).

It is hard to tell exactly how someone should be weighted by a description because there are so many variables, but my immediate reaction is that you are indeed overweighted. You should not need a whole lot of help with this. What you mainly need is a body of water in which to check it out and the dive equipment in which you will be diving. If a local dive shop allows people to pay for a simple practice session in a pool, either with or without a DM or instructor to assist, take advantage of it. You should have done a weight check in your OW class, but in case you did not, here's what you can do. Put on the amount of weight you think you might need. In water too deep to stand, dump all the air from the BCD while you hold a NORMAL breath. Do not kick. If you sink below eye level, you are overweighted. The speed at which you sink should tell you how much you are overweighted.

If you do this with a full tank, most people will tell you to add the amount of weight you will lose during the dive (about 5-6 pounds with an AL 80), but others will argue that is not necessary because during that check you will have enough air trapped in the BCD and wet suit when you do the weight check to make up for that. You can also do the weight check after your tank has lost most of its air to get a better idea.

Since that is fresh water, you will need to add about 3% of your total body + gear weight for salt water. For you, that might be about 5 pounds.

Some people argue that it is nice to be a couple pounds heavier than the ideal weighting. If you are very well weighted, you will not have much air in the BCD during a dive, and when you want to vent some of it out, it can be hard to get that little bubble to the venting location. With a little more air in the BCD, it's easier. You don't want too much, though. Every extra point of lead adds about a pint of air to the BCD, and the more air in the BCD, the harder it is to control your buoyancy.

 

[markmud]

Wow, what a fantastic thread, thank you all. The feedback here, as well as the link to the NASE blog, are tremendously helpful to me.

I completed my OW dives in blue water two weeks ago. Can't wait to work with someone who would help me as I believe I may be over-weighted. (5'6"; 112 lbs.; full coverage 5mm wetsuit; boat dives; salt water; 18lbs. lead, AL80).

Since I run so darn cold, it looks like I need to research instructors in southern U.S. and/or the Caribbean who might be willing to work with me and then travel to them. It wouldn't have to be PPB, part of AOW, or any other cert program, I simply wish to feel confident that I'm working towards optimal weighting and neutral buoyancy.

Thanks again for spending your time continuing to get the message out. There are newbies like me who hear you.

Hi WrmbluH20:

I am not an instructor, so I cannot answer your questions directly. However, I have found a cross-training regimen works for an occasional vacation diver such as myself. You don't need to be an athlete to dive well, but muscle tone and lung capacity greatly help me.

When I have fit lungs, I need less weight. I have, accidently anyways, dived without my BC inflator hose hooked-up...and I did not know it because I did not need my BC during the dive!

I can dive a little overweight or a little underweight, and dive well, as long as I am relatively physically fit.

My definition of minimally physically fit for diving:
1) I need to be able to run around a city block three times and not be winded (an elevated breathing rate is OK, not winded and red-faced).
2) Ride my trail bike on hilly bike trails for 8 miles at a relatively fast pace.
3) Perform reps of 15 push-ups, 15 pull-ups, 30 forty-pound curls.
4) Other minor exercising and stretching techniques.

I know what you fitness freaks are thinking! That's not an exercise program!

You're correct, it is not!

But, I have found when I am able to perform all of the above tasks without issue or stress, my diving is easier and much more enjoyable!

It is the bare minimum to dive well, and be able to dive while being slightly over weighted or under weighted, for me anyways.

markm
PS: Your SAC will always suck if your lungs are crappy!

 

[TMHeimer]

markmud, Re the exercise routine: Am trying to think if I could do all that stuff. I would think a fairly large % of divers couldn't do all (or any) of that without gradually training--the question is are they really fit for diving? I can say that there are some instructors/DMs that would also fall short, but are perhaps fit enough due to a ton of diving and possibly some regular swim laps. If you can get a good time on the DM 400 metre swim I would guess you are OK. Would be interested to hear from the pros on that.

The bike is out in winter here a lot of the time. May depend on the size of the city block (no blocks here-- how long is that, a mile?). The curls--how many lift weights? Push ups, OK. Pullups I guess one could find something somewhere to hang on. I do 20 minutes on the excercise bike a day, 5 minutes with the rubber "arm stretchy" things, a few calisthetics (sp???) and often haul rocks from the beach. Lots of time for this being retired. If you have a full time job it would probably be hard to fit in 8 bike miles every day.

 

[WrmBluH2O]

Boulderjohn,

Thank you very much for your guidance about weighting. I do appreciate it. The instructor did quickly do the eye level/deflated BC/normal breath "test" as we concluded our pool work. My ending air at that point was 2278 PSI.

I'll spare you the gory details as to why I think I may be overweighted. It's not that I don't wish to share, but rather that as you pointed out, it's hard to help someone going by his or her description of what happened. As important to me, I don't wish to try to hijack the thread. I am truly grateful that you, the OP, and others here enlightened me as to the potential problems should one be overweighted. That is seriously valuable stuff. While I see posts on scubaboard from intelligent folks who either determined and/or intuited that they themselves were overweighted as a result of their training, knowledge of physics, or common sense, I myself did not. And, I am guessing I may not be the only new diver in that boat. So again, thanks.

I do have access to a pool at home. My husband is also a certified diver (OW, AOW, & nitrox). While brilliant, he too is a newbie (about 60 dives). Nonetheless, he could help me repeat the weighting tests. All that said, I do really wish to work with someone on weighting, neutral buoyancy, in minimal current salt water. So, I am happy to travel and pay for good instruction to that end.

It's a cliche but I do view my OW certification as a "license to learn". I wish to be a capable, safe dive buddy and have fun. Multiple day diving and liveaboards are the plan. May have to sit out any (most?) morning dives that will be deep and that is cool with me. I got in to this because snorkeling is one of my top ten fav activities. Being able to breathe underwater and peacefully enjoy the beautiful creatures and coral formations is amazing.

Markmud, thank you and I agree that striving for fitness is key. I used to run track, cross country, road races, and play basketball. I've done a marathon (qualified for Boston). Nowadays, I do the recumbent bike vigorously at least 5 days per week, and I do a fair amount of isometrics and weight-lifting (even if my stats don't seem to reflect that). I do the latter to build/maintain strength and hopefully stave off osteoporosis (I'm 47 years old). Also, my ongoing yoga practice has made relaxed, belly breathing for diving so much easier than it might otherwise have been.

So even though I work out consistently, with lots of upper body, core, glutes, legs, I still managed to throw my back out two days post-certification. Did manage to get in one lovely, relaxed 82 minute post-certification dive with a very zen DM who grew up on island and has 30,000+ dives if that is to be believed. Disappointingly, I had to sit out the last few days of diving we'd booked and instead take care of my strained back muscles which took about eight days to resolve.

I am truly careful to lift things properly. Will have to noodle on the most optimal ways to don and doff gear without messing with the flow of the group. I know different circumstances will dictate different options. We did back roll entry off tiny skiff. Instructor had me hand up weights, then kit. For last OW dive he had me climb ladder with the kit (which I did). The DM for the post-cert dive had me hand up kit, weights and all.

In an ideal world, I would love to be handed my gear in the water at the side of the boat and return it in a similar fashion. However, I have heard that option is typically reserved for certain physically-challenged divers. The "be able to carry your own gear" discussions I see on the forums depress me a bit. I wish to, especially since I am a woman. Believe me, I am not lazy nor expecting someone to do things for me that I should be responsible for myself.

Thank you again, markmud. Happy diving!

 

[boulderjohn]

If you are looking for more help with buoyancy and trim and are very serious about it, you have several options. There is a specialty course called Peak Performance Buoyancy you can take, but I suggest you do not take it from just anyone. An instructor who has technical diving experience will likely teach the course very differently from one who has not. Ask if there is anyone in any local dive shop with those qualifications. You are in a large area that should have many good options without having to go too far.

That is not your only option. There are pre-technical courses that will go into much greater depth than that for buoyancy and trim. Some of these courses are very well known and well recommended, but there are others. Some of them can be very intensive and expensive. Some will require that you purchase a whole set of gear you may or may not want, but others will work with you in whatever gear you want.

 

[WrmBluH2O]

boulderjohn,

Thank you very much for your follow-up suggestions as to how to best seek out someone to help me with my desire to work on buoyancy, trim, propulsion methods, and weighting issue. As a newbie, it's difficult to figure out who might be a truly good instructor for PPB, so I love the idea of trying to ferret out someone with a tech background.

Thanks again!