Is learning from PADI that bad?

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If a diver training agency has a Quality Assurance system that system should, if nothing else, ensure students are getting certifications having meet the requirements. Adding components before awarding a certification is, in my opinion wrong.

This is my reasoning:
Diver A gains a qualification from agency X - their instructor included additional components before awarding the certification.
Diver B holds the same qualification from the same agency - their instructor taught the syllabus as is.

These individuals meet up on a trip. They will both assume the other has the same level of knowledge/skill. This could lead to an incident as either one could be pushed beyond their competence level. One attempting something they have no training/experience of, the other by relying on their buddy to be able to do something not included in the syllabus.

BSAC make it clear to all instructors, via the Instructor Manual and the Branch Officers' Handbook, that additional 'local' knowledge/skills can be taught AFTER the award of a diver certification, NOT as part of one (the use of a Delayed Surface Marker Buoy because most diving is on wrecks in tidal waters). That when two Ocean Divers or Sports Divers meet up on a dive trip they know the minimum capability of the other.

Yes, BSAC's entry level course is the Ocean Diver Qualification and requires the student to be able to swim 200M and after certification, restrictions apply:
- The maximum depth is 20M
- Must dive with another BSAC Ocean Diver or with a BSAC Sports Diver, within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered during training
- Must be with a Dive Leader or higher grade, to expand experience beyond the conditions encountered during training, under the supervision of a Dive Manager
- No mandatory decompression stops
- and under the on-site supervision of a Dive Manager with respect to site selection, conditions and dive plan

This is supervised diving and does not compare with diver training that's intended for unsupervised conditions. Personally, I like many of the aspects integrated into the BSAC system.

---------- Post Merged at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:37 PM ----------

You taught outside the scope of the course is why "wrist was slapped"..sort of like teaching someone to drive a car for a NY state license, but asking them to have skills for a NASCAR race..They signed up for a ow class,teach them a ow class. You can refer rescue skills during class acad/confined water presentations that once they are certified they will be taught in a rescue course. There are some very basic rescue / self rescue skills in the ow class such as tired diver tow/cramp release/alt air use/CESA..etc.

PADI told me that I could integrate the OW and Rescue Diver training programs. It was not what I did, it was it was only 'wrong' if I didn't certify them as Rescue Divers. It's all about the money...

Yes things happen..but very unusual for recreational divers on a simple follow the dm reef dive, that most get involved in. Perhaps they never return for continue ed courses is they think they know all there is to know form their basic ow course and feel not worth the time or money, or they simply drop out of diving and go on th their next interest.

Or perhaps they continue to dive for many years without the benefit of what some believe to be "the basics."

You would NOT pass the watermanship requirement of the ow course..as it also includes ability to tread water,unassisted by swim aids,for 10 minutes..That alone shows if someone can swim or not.

PADI had a requirement to tread water or float for 10 minutes. Has this been changed?

There are bad instructors in every agency..As to the requirements of a ow certified PADI diver , the present standards fit the needs of most people that want to dive in a safe manner for the type of diving (warm water island visibility) that they wish to do. For those diving in areas of poor visibility/cold, it can fit their needs as well.They are certified to dive in areas and conditions similar to where they did their training dives.Obviously if someone did training dives in LI Sound in cold dark water in a 7mm wet suit/hood/gloves they can easily adapt to 3mm 80 degree 100ft vis in the islands. I have seen just as many bad NAUI/SSI/BSAC divers , so to say all bad divers are PADI is unfounded. Its not the agency,and its not always the instructor,but the individual diver themself that can be at fault.

Yes, there are poor Instructors and divers in all Agencies. I believe however, that each Agency has a responsibility to specify training standards for every diving environment. Alternatively, the Agency can allow the instructor to add to "minimum requirements" that have been established by the Agency.

We all want to increase student safety..BUT "encouraged" means one thing and "requirement means something else entirely.I can encourage my wife to go easy on the credit card but can I truly require it?? Student must demonstrate mastery of a skill so that it can be repeated easily. If they can only do a required skill 1 time and cannot repeat it they do not pass.PADI has standards approach. Student either can do the skill in a comfortable, repeatable manner , or they do not pass.

Yes, mastery is required for all the skills listed. This is however, restricted to these specific requirements as no others can be added.

Once a PADI diver is certified in ow there is a statement on their record that says they are certified to dive in conditions similar to what they certified in. PADI encourages area orientations and continue education for the diver.Its up to the individual to choose if diving is for them at that point and to go on to more training.

I would like to see ALL ow certified divers have beyond basic navigation -deep-rescue skills to earn a simple ow certification, but it ain't gonna happen. Its not any agency fault , it is the publics fault. People want to dive NOW, not have to take courses for 3-4 weeks and devote 50-60 hours to get certified to look at the fish. Cost would be prohibitive as you all know this is a business for many of us and the price of a ow course would now easily be 3 to 5 times more than what it is now,thereby eliminating many possible participants.

I agree that many (but not all) members of the public want it as quickly as possible. I'm thankful however, that they don't give out Pilot's Licenses to people with short training courses simply because they want to be licensed quickly... People will pay what they have to pay, if they want to learn. I owned a dive shop and ran 45 hour basic courses when others ran in half-the-time. I still made money. Not as much as I could have made, but my focus wasn't solely on profit.

Oly, my argument can be summed-up simply. If an Instructor doubles the training time, student safety is increased. If an Instructor can't do this, s/he's not much of an Instructor. In reading the thread, other people have commented (as you have) on how OW Diver training can be improved. Why is this not the topic under discussion? If there's a good idea for content, or a unique way of presenting/teaching the material, I'll implement it into my training program immediately. I have the flexibility given by my Agency to do that. Why would another Instructor not wish to improve his program?

I'll also work with other NAUI instructors (and other Agencies) who wish to make a change to Agency standards. NAUI is an organization of Instructors, each having a vote. Personally, I like that. Although not all Agencies have a similar structure, I'd hope that the Instructor cadre (regardless of what Agency it is) would work for improvement and not just hold the corporate line.
 
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Yes, BSAC's entry level course is the Ocean Diver Qualification and requires the student to be able to swim 200M and after certification, restrictions apply:
- The maximum depth is 20M
- Must dive with another BSAC Ocean Diver or with a BSAC Sports Diver, within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered during training
- Must be with a Dive Leader or higher grade, to expand experience beyond the conditions encountered during training, under the supervision of a Dive Manager.
- No mandatory decompression stops.
- and under the on-site supervision of a Dive Manager with respect to site selection, conditions and dive plan.

At what point are divers "allowed" to dive with who they please?
 
At what point are divers "allowed" to dive with who they please?

The next level is Sports Diver. Depth may be progressively increased to a maximum of 35m. A BSAC Sports is defined as a diver who is competent to:
- conduct dives to 20m (if you choose to do the post qualification progress dives, the depth is increased in 5m increments to 35m)
- conduct dives with a BSAC Ocean Diver within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered by the Ocean Diver
- conduct dives with another BSAC Sports Diver, within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered during training.
- Conduct dives with a Dive Leader or higher grade, to expand experience beyond the conditions encountered during training, under the supervision of a Dive Manager.
- use breathing gas mixes up to Nitrox 36
- plan and conduct dives requiring mandatory decompression stops
- rescue a casualty and provide basic life support
- support the role of Dive Manager by acting as a competent deputy

Next is the Dive Leader A BSAC Dive Leader which is defined as a diver who:
- can plan and lead a range of dives including those requiring detailed dive, gas and decompression requirements planning.
- has rescue management skills.
- is competent to manage and supervise branch dives to locations well known to the branch.
- can conduct dives with divers of any grade, to expand their experience beyond that previously encountered by those divers, under the supervision of a Dive Manager.
- can conduct experience building dives with trainee Ocean Divers, within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered by the trainee Ocean Diver, and under the supervision of a Dive Manager.

Then Advanced and First-Class Diver programs (see Already a PADI or SAA Diver? BSAC welcomes all agencies!). Look under Diver Grade Courses.
 
Discussions like this intrigue me. I am not sure that 'minimalist' is a negative. Most (successful) businesses are continuously pursuing ways to produce their product in a ‘faster, cheaper, better’ way, a minimalist way. In some cases, ‘better’ takes third place and ’not any worse’ becomes the practice, irrespective of marketing claims. Nothing is necessarily wrong with that. It happens in professions, it happens in education, it happens in manufacturing, it happens in other forms of endeavors – pilot certification, issuance of driver’s licenses, etc. It is reality - every organization should be trying to determine the minimal(ist) investment of time and effort required to produce a functional product at whatever standard is required by the user and supported by the marketplace. To do otherwise is inefficient, and foolish. Cost considerations simply DO NOT support the notion of producing a product at a needlessly higher price, or requiring needless excessive time, except where there is a boutique cachet associated with the product (Starbuck’s coffee comes to mind, although I am not sure how universally accepted that is). For commodities, and open water diver training is a commodity, price and convenience guide the process. Personally, I REALLY like the structure and content of the Scripps 100 hour course that Thal has written about. I would like to 'take' a scientific diver course, to further improve my skills as a diver (and as an instructor). I do not think a 100 hour course is a necessary requirement for Open Water divers, not commercially viable as the primary form of scuba training.

Among the things that I really struggle with in these discussions is the terminology, particularly where terms such as ‘higher’ are applied to standards. Questions I am often left with include: What constitutes a ‘higher’ standard, versus simply a ‘different’ standard? Does ‘higher’ always equate to ‘better’? Does ‘higher’ always equate to ‘more relevant’. How do I distinguish ‘higher’ from ‘needless’? Often, I see statements about comparative standards that reflect ‘different’, or more ‘restrictive’, standards. I don’t know if they are ‘higher’.

I will use the GUE information cited, as an example. Before doing so, a caveat: In the following remarks, I AM NOT criticizing GUE. It is a good organization, highly regarded, well-respected. Having said that, it is also useful as a platform to examine the concept of ‘higher’ standards, since some GUE standards were cited apparently as such an example. Yes, GUE Recreational Diver Level I requires that the student be ‘a non-smoker’, and ‘physically and mentally fit’. Great! (In fact, those are general pre-requisites for all GUE courses). But, is the ‘non-smoker’ standard really a ‘higher’ standard, or is it simply more ‘restrictive’. What difference does that really make? Is a non-smoker a better / safer diver? In 2012, smoking is on the decline among many adults in the US. But, there are still some who smoke, yet they are somehow able to participate in strenuous activity, function effectively as teachers, government officials, airline pilots, scuba instructors, coaches, etc. I don’t smoke cigarettes. I happen to think cigarette smoking is disgusting. But, I am not convinced of the relevance of being a ‘non-smoker’ to recreational diving certification. I actually like the idea that a student is ‘physically and mentally fit’. But, what are the criteria?

Another example that was cited: GUE standards require that the diver ‘Must be able to swim at least 300 yards/275 meters in under fourteen minutes without stopping’. OK, most of us can probably agree that a diver should be able to swim for some distance, and I am OK with 300 yards. And, that is longer (is that a 'higher' standard) than the 200 yards required by PADI, if swimming without mask, snorkel, fins. What does 14 minutes have to do with swimming ability? Why 14 minutes? Why not 15 - it is a nice round number? But, wait, why not really raise the bar ‘higher’, and say 10 minutes? That would obviously be a 'higher' standard, wouldn’t it? And, if we are going to do that, let’s go even further – 7 minutes. The winning time at the 2012 Olympics for the men’s 200m freestyle swim was 1 minute, 43 seconds. Surely, a 'physically and mentally fit’ diver worthy of certification could do 275m in 7 minutes. Yes, I am being a bit perverse. I don't see the relevance of 14 minutes, nor the association with a standard. 'Different', yes. More 'restrictive', yes. 'Higher', not really.

Similarly, GUE’s training philosophy statement asserts that ‘a good education is vital for the safe enjoyment of recreational and technical diving . . .’. I fully agree. It goes on to add ‘and must include both a strong academic component and a rigorous practical one.’ Again, I agree. It then states that ‘ This is achieved by: . . . 2. Classes: GUE classes are lengthy and rigorous, demanding preparation before they begin.’ Hmm. What about ‘substantive’ classes, what about classes that directly contribute to the development of the skills and attitudes necessary for safe diving? Which is more critical – ‘lengthy and rigorous’ or ‘substantive and meaningful’?

Where I actually worry about GUE standards is in another area. Instead of ‘mastery’ – the PADI standard – the GUE Recreational Diver Level I must only demonstrate ‘aptitude in the following open-water skills: mask clearing, mask removal and replacement, regulator removal and exchange, long hose deployment.’ OMG, talk about minimalist standards – merely ‘aptitude’, not ‘mastery’? Just kidding. I really don’t see any functional difference in intent.

I spent 26 years as a tenured faculty member of a major health science university. I spent a good deal of that time dealing with some basic science colleagues that seemed to think that a ‘better’ graduate program was simply a ‘harder’ one or a ‘longer’ one, so they would (attempt to) pile on more coursework, and laboratory requirements, while dismally failing to provide any intellectually satisfying basis for those additional requirements, in the context of what students were being prepared to do. (At least, that was my opinion, as a member of our Graduate Education and Research Committee, which more often than not turned down such requests for the additional coursework.) My son is a third year veterinary medicine student in Europe in a school where he was required to take an entire course on radiation physics, supposedly as a foundation upon which to be able to understand and interpret radiographs (x-rays). In fact, the course seemed to be more a desperate attempt on the part of frustrated basic science faculty to retain some semblance of relevance, and curricular control, in an age when clinical disciplines (medicine, veterinary medicine, nursing, pharmacy, etc) are far more focused on relevant clinical coursework and experience. And, in fairness, maybe I will sound like a hypocrite, but I will admit that I think the high school public education curriculum in this country has been ‘dumbed down’ considerably since I was in high school. But, that also doesn’t seem to preclude competent, motivated students from gaining admission to university.

Again, lest I be targeted for assassination, I AM NOT criticizing GUE. It is a good organization, highly regarded, well-respected. But, I see no functional value in citing such GUE standards as ‘higher’ in this thread – more restrictive, perhaps. Just because a class is ‘lengthy and rigorous’ does not mean it produces a better diver. It may, or may not. Having said that, I do believe there is considerable substance in GUE courses. One of the GUE standards I really like (seriously) is ‘Demonstrate good buoyancy and trim, i.e. approximate reference maximum of 30 degrees off horizontal while remaining within 5 feet/1.5 meters of a target depth.‘ But, just because it isn’t a PADI standard does not preclude me as a PADI instructor, from emphasizing horizontal trim beginning with the first pool session and continuing through Open Water dives, AND having a CA do videography of OW students during their OW dives so they can see how in trim, or not, they are. Actually, I really want to get whatever tool GUE instructors use to document the '30 degrees off horizontal', other than an 'ad oculos' evaluation.

I think I will start a new scuba training agency. I will require that ALL instructor candidates hold a certification as a Commercial Diver. I will require that ALL instructor candidates provide evidence of training as a health professional (physician, nurse, pharmacist, and yes – even dentist :)) - after all, there are cases where that will be helpful and merely having first aid certification just won't cut it. I will require that ALL instructor candidates provide evidence of prior training as a NASA astronaut - after all, I want my instructors to be mentally and physically fit. By golly, I will definitely have HIGHER standards. So, there, PADI / NAUI / CMAS / SEDI / NASE / BSAC!
 
2) Neither an instructor, nor an agency, can "require a student" do anything. Scuba training is voluntary and a student can cease training at any time. All an instructor or agency can do is INDUCE a student. When you say 'require' you perhaps mean "induce by threat of withholding certification."
...

Some thoughts....

2) People generally respond better to positive inducement. An instructor who teaches, and shares knowledge, and sets a good example, will generally have more success than an instructor who attempts to coerce by threat of withholding something.

3) If a particular instructor does not believe they can impart knowledge without coercion by threat of immediate loss to the student, there are still means available to them.

THEM, because you are relatively new to the board, you don't know how much of a waste of time your thoughtfully constructed post has been to you.

More than 20 years ago, DCBC left PADI in a disagreement and has been blasting them ever since. He took a nearly two year break for reasons that I don't understand (although I have some suspicions), but he is apparently back and fully recharged. A couple of years ago he started a new thread about every two weeks about why PADI is pure evil, and in between he added posts on that topic to threads that had nothing to do with it.

Each time he did, PADI instructors would take him on and challenge him on every one of his factually inaccurate or misleading statements, including the one you just corrected. PADI instructors, including me, add extra material all the time, and there is no problem with it. He uses a tight reading of language in the standards that make it seem as if we can't, but the reality is there is no true restriction. I worked in a shop with a dozen PADI instructors and a Course Director. One day the Course Director asked all of us to send him a list of the topics we added to the course so that he could compile an official shop list of those extras so that all the students could benefit from those additional materials and so that we could be more consistent as a group as to what we added. Note that the Course Director's action was to help us add more material, not to tell us we couldn't do it.

DCDC knows that. He has been told it many, many, times. What generally happens is he comes aggressively to a thread like this, spews his nonsense, and then finally stops when enough exasperated people have called him on his misinformation. Then he waits a couple of weeks and then enters another thread with the same misinformation. He knows that the things he is saying are either incorrect or misleading. You will not change him; your only hope is to inform the people who might think he is actually telling the truth.

What happens is that eventually the people who have been calling him on his inaccuracies get frustrated and tired of it all. One by one they drop out of the battle, while he rages on. One moderator confronted him for a while and then quit ScubaBoard completely in frustration. It is no longer a pleasurable place to visit when that is all you could read day after day after day after day. I was one of the people who took him on back then, probably the one who lasted the longest. I am writing this now, and then I am leaving the battle to fresh troops. I am only posting this for the benefit of those who are newer to ScubaBoard and have not seen the battles that were waged in the past.
 
little bit of a straw man there, Colliam7.

I have taken both GUE Fundamentals (rec pass/provisional tec) and have passed TDI Advanced Nitrox/Decompression procedures.

I found the standards to be "higher" in GUE-F even though they are not equivalent courses (GUE-F is essentially a tec primer, whereas my TDI classes were tec classes).

For example, in the TDI class I was required to demonstrate a backwards kick, and since I was able to move backward about 5 feet, I was passed. In GUE-F, I was required to swim a square course about 30 feet in distance, and struggled enough that I didn't pass. I think this is clearly a higher standard.
 
Those who are comparing GUE standards (supposedly so high and laudable) and PADI standards (supposedly so base and worthless), should consider this apparent paradox.

The headquarters for GUE training is in two shops in High Springs and Gainesville in Florida. Those two shops are owned by the owner of GUE. As you might guess, they offer GUE training at those two shops. That is not, however, the only kind of training they offer. There is one other agency that has high enough quality to meet their standards, and that is PADI. By far most of the people who are trained as recreational divers at the headquarters of GUE are certified as PADI divers.
 
Those who are comparing GUE standards (supposedly so high and laudable) and PADI standards (supposedly so base and worthless), should consider this apparent paradox.

The headquarters for GUE training is in two shops in High Springs and Gainesville in Florida. Those two shops are owned by the owner of GUE. As you might guess, they offer GUE training at those two shops. That is not, however, the only kind of training they offer. There is one other agency that has high enough quality to meet their standards, and that is PADI. By far most of the people who are trained as recreational divers at the headquarters of GUE are certified as PADI divers.

who owns GUE?

I believe JJ is the president, but didn't know there was an owner, just curious
 
Yes, BSAC's entry level course is the Ocean Diver Qualification and requires the student to be able to swim 200M and after certification, restrictions apply:
- The maximum depth is 20M
- Must dive with another BSAC Ocean Diver or with a BSAC Sports Diver, within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered during training
- Must be with a Dive Leader or higher grade, to expand experience beyond the conditions encountered during training, under the supervision of a Dive Manager
- No mandatory decompression stops
- and under the on-site supervision of a Dive Manager with respect to site selection, conditions and dive plan

This is supervised diving and does not compare with diver training that's intended for unsupervised conditions. Personally, I like many of the aspects integrated into the BSAC system.

Where do you get this MUST from?

There is no law that says a BSAC Ocean Diver (OD) has to dive with another BSAC buddy. When ODs go abroad on holiday (sorry vacation) they will dive with whoever is appropriate at the time.

Additionally, as far as I'm aware all elementary certified divers are to dive under some sort of supervision (for Dive Manger read trip organiser/operator, Dive Master/Guide) and in conditions they've already encountered.
 
I have taken both GUE Fundamentals (rec pass/provisional tec) and have passed TDI Advanced Nitrox/Decompression procedures.I found the standards to be "higher" in GUE-F even though they are not equivalent courses (GUE-F is essentially a tec primer, whereas my TDI classes were tec classes).
Maybe I can clarify - the specific points in the previous post that I was referring to were the ones I emphasized - 'non-smokers', the swimming test, etc. And, I will again state that I see nothing 'higher' in these, as far as their relevance to open water divers goes. They are clearly different. They are clearly more restrictive. And, that means what . . .? The only reason I even used GUE was it happened to be the agency that was previously cited.
For example, in the TDI class I was required to demonstrate a backwards kick, and since I was able to move backward about 5 feet, I was passed. In GUE-F, I was required to swim a square course about 30 feet in distance, and struggled enough that I didn't pass. I think this is clearly a higher standard.
It is certainly a different standard. And, I won't even argue that it wasn't a 'higher' standard, if that's how you view it. That wasn't the point - that some GUE standards are not different. I am curious. Was it a better standard? Was it more relevant to whatever diving you want to do? And, I am not even suggesting that some GUE standards are not 'higher', or some NAUI standards are not higher - pick an agency. Rather, the whole point was to address what 'higher' might mean, whether 'higher' is (always) better, relevant, necessary, or even practical. (Of course, unless you can swim a square course about 30 feet in distance, backward, you obviously should not be a tec diver. Again, just kidding.) Fundies is a good course, and it is demanding. No question about it. But, that wasn't my point. I can say that the compass navigation standards for AOW are 'higher' than the compass navigation standards for OW - you have to navigate a square in AOW, and just an out-and-back in OW. The comparison is meaningless.
 

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