Is learning from PADI that bad?

[Thalassamania]

OK, something DCBC wrote is that under PADI if the instructor has determined that the student has mastered all of the required skills and successfully passed all the exams and knowledge reviews and watched and understood the video, the PADI instructor is required to certify the student. Fair enough -- that is the rule (with a few exceptions not relevant here).

By writing this the way he did, DCBC is implying that if I took a course from him and demonstrated that I had mastered all of the skills he wanted, passed all the exams, etc., he would still reserve the right to not certify me -- as far as I can tell, just on his whim.

OK, if that's what you want, go for it.

Me, I prefer the PADI/GUE way -- strictly identify what is needed to get the cert and if the various "skills" are mastered, I get the card. If they aren't mastered AND the student wishes to continue to work, then work until they are and then, and only then, get the card. DCBC's way seems to be arbitary in the extreme.

You're taking the classic reductionist view (which btw GUE rejects), perhaps lawyers have the ability to see the holistic view trained out of the them, I know that is the general case in the lawyer I know, always looking for the loophole or the exception, never grasping the totality because it is so difficult to define and pin down.

There are many, many, skills that are not on anyone's list, not PADI's, not GUE's, not even mine. Let me give you a non-trivial example: Glottal control. One of them more frequent life threatening occurrences it the so called "bolt" to the surface following the inhalation of a small quantity of water. This is common enough to considered, "classic." Yet ... do you, or PADI, or GUE, or NAUI, or anyone else that you know of have any systematic way of training students to deal with this problem? Have you ever broken this problem down into it's component parts and identified where in your training you assure that your students have "mastered" some skill or skills that address this issue? I rather doubt that you have, and I rather doubt that you ever will, because mastery of this comes (at least in the training I conduct) from the use of a plain J-tube snorkel in choppy water, something that you (and others) have rejected as useful time spent since you prefer to swim on the surface with an inflated BC on your back. See the logical disconnect? I have no problem with your solution to the problem of surface swims, but your (that's the y'all "your") reductionist approach to skill listed meant that a rather critical skill was overlooked and lost because it had never been "put on the list" in an upfront fashion. This is only one of many such, some of which I'm sure I've never, "put on the list," but continue to do do because it works.

 

[Peter Guy]

Thal, thank you for your response but, I'll confess I don't understand it. I really don't know what point you were attempting to make. (I write attempting because it wasn't made.)

BTW Thal, you seem to have totally ignored the issue that I was discussing -- that of the "DCBC method of 'you are finished when I say you are'" without any objective standards. I also don't understand your comments about GUE standards and training which, as far as I can tell from personal experience and discussion with several GUE instructors, are even more standardized than PADI's. In "GUE Land" it really IS a case of meeting the published standards and getting the card or not meeting those objective standards and not getting the card. With GUE, it is truly an If/Then situation -- lots of black and white and very little, if any, gray. At least in "PADI Land" there may well be gray in that "mastery" does depend on each instructor's impression.

 

[DCBC]

By writing this the way he did, DCBC is implying that if I took a course from him and demonstrated that I had mastered all of the skills he wanted, passed all the exams, etc., he would still reserve the right to not certify me -- as far as I can tell, just on his whim.

Peter, you misunderstand what I've said. Given my training and experience (like many other Instructors), I feel that I have a good understanding on what is required to prepare a student to dive in my local conditions safely. If I made a list, neither PADI nor NAUI's standards would be sufficient. In other words, both of these standards fall short of what is required in my opinion. My opinion is relevant only because I'm the guy that signs the dotted line and authorizes the certification. Before I do, the diver will meet these standards. Certification with PADI isn't possible because I could not add what I believe to be required and require this as a condition for certification. PADI prohibits this. NAUI allows me to add whatever I feel is reasonably necessary as the criteria for certification. NAUI also has a quality control process. I have explained my reasoning to NAUI and in over 35 years have never had a problem with what, when and how I teach my program. Your suggestion of "whim" is unprofessional and rather insulting.

 

[drrich2]

Reading DCBC's post, I keep coming back to the point that not all divers dive locally. I do some diving at the local quarry in southwestern KY, but just try dragging my wife to it. If someone wants a basic OW cert. to vacation dive on cruises or the like to warm tropical Caribbean destinations with great conditions, why can't the person get that cert. regardless of where they live?

If someone WANTS to dive the North Atlantic or other harsher environments, I would think they'd need to get the training to do so. Even there, PADI's modular approach allows for that (get OW, then get more training; after all, you might do some Caribbean dives before you're ready for the North Atlantic...). Perhaps a distinctive specialty course for shore diving with waves up to x feet, water down to x temp., viz. down to x feet, etc...?

The issue of whether rescue skills should be in the basic OW course comes up often. You can argue it would on rare occasion be quite beneficial (e.g.: save a life), but to me that's like saying it'd be great if every competent U.S. adult was trained & current in CPR & First Aid, which would also save some lives. Yes, it would be. But we don't make everybody do it.

Richard.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Reading DCBC's post, I keep coming back to the point that not all divers dive locally. I do some diving at the local quarry in southwestern KY, but just try dragging my wife to it. If someone wants a basic OW cert. to vacation dive on cruises or the like to warm tropical Caribbean destinations with great conditions, why can't the person get that cert. regardless of where they live?

If someone WANTS to dive the North Atlantic or other harsher environments, I would think they'd need to get the training to do so. Even there, PADI's modular approach allows for that (get OW, then get more training; after all, you might do some Caribbean dives before you're ready for the North Atlantic...). Perhaps a distinctive specialty course for shore diving with waves up to x feet, water down to x temp., viz. down to x feet, etc...?

The issue of whether rescue skills should be in the basic OW course comes up often. You can argue it would on rare occasion be quite beneficial (e.g.: save a life), but to me that's like saying it'd be great if every competent U.S. adult was trained & current in CPR & First Aid, which would also save some lives. Yes, it would be. But we don't make everybody do it.

Richard.

They can get if. Just from some other instructor who will do that. I'm not as rigid as DCBC but fully respect and agree with what he does with his students. My students don't get an OW card until they can show me they can do all the required skills for evaluation in midwater and in low vis. Along with performing the rescue skills that SEI requires. SEI not only allows but actually requires us to evaluate our local conditions and add any items we feel will make our students safe, skilled, and competent. The agency is not the best judge of the student by any means. The agency is not in the water with them. They are not in my local dive spots. And they don't decide who gets a card. The instructor does.

I always use NAUI's "loved one" rule (a variation of it is also an SDI requirement) and my own ethical and moral compass to decide what gets put in the class along with agency standards. If someone comes to me wanting a "vacation diver only" course with just the basics that some other agencies offer I, by standards, have to try and make them see why that may not be the best idea. If they still want to do a course of that type SEI requires that we either certify them under another agency if we can or, preferably, send them to someone else as SEI does not want to be associated with that type of training in any way.

Rescue skills in OW are also required. And what I have found is that even if they are never used, the added measure of confidence and situational awareness they add to a new diver is alone worth it. It's another reason that every class I teach after OW has some rescue skills. And the result of that is most students then want to come back for the full rescue course. It's a win, win every way you look at it.

 

[Thalassamania]

Reading DCBC's post, I keep coming back to the point that not all divers dive locally. I do some diving at the local quarry in southwestern KY, but just try dragging my wife to it. If someone wants a basic OW cert. to vacation dive on cruises or the like to warm tropical Caribbean destinations with great conditions, why can't the person get that cert. regardless of where they live?

If someone WANTS to dive the North Atlantic or other harsher environments, I would think they'd need to get the training to do so. Even there, PADI's modular approach allows for that (get OW, then get more training; after all, you might do some Caribbean dives before you're ready for the North Atlantic...). Perhaps a distinctive specialty course for shore diving with waves up to x feet, water down to x temp., viz. down to x feet, etc...?

The issue of whether rescue skills should be in the basic OW course comes up often. You can argue it would on rare occasion be quite beneficial (e.g.: save a life), but to me that's like saying it'd be great if every competent U.S. adult was trained & current in CPR & First Aid, which would also save some lives. Yes, it would be. But we don't make everybody do it.

Richard.

If a diver does not want to dive locally I will advise them to get trained in the location that they want to dive ... I am happy to accompany them and teach there, if they so desire.

As someone observing the product, the modular approach just does not, in my experience, seem to work well for more extreme environs, perhaps it has something to do with the Law of Primacy, to be a truly adequate North Atlantic or North Pacific diver it is best to start off right and not have to unlearn a bunch of questionable habits and attitudes.

I don't know that rescue skills, per se, are important in terms of the likelihood of needing them to perform a rescue, but I do know that they are important in terms of setting the right frame of mind and bringing a bunch of other skills together in a fruitful fashion. As far as CPR and First Aid are concerned ... I consider those to be requirements for me to write a certification card or a reciprocity letter and I have never certified a diver who had not completed both prior to certification. If a diver doesn't want to meet that specification ... I can recommend many less stringent instructors. You not only get what you pay for, you also don't get more than you're willing to put in.

 

[drrich2]

If a diver does not want to dive locally I will advise them to get trained in the location that they want to dive ... I am happy to accompany them and teach there, if they so desire.

I see your point. I don't know just what resources are available in different areas. In parts of the U.S., there are flooded old gravel quarries (like Pennyroyal Blue Spring in the town I live by) or similar environs (e.g.: Vortex Spring in northern Florida). Basically, you have access in such to no current, decent viz. (at least part of the time) waters (in PBS fairly warm above the first thermocline in Summer; Vortex tends to run around 68 degrees year round).

I was thinking perhaps in some areas there may be rough coastal conditions, but also a nearby 'gentler' alternative, like one of these quarries. And of course, some people train with a local instructor, then travel on referral (or with a student group and an instructor) to a more optimal site for their checkout dives. A LOT of people travel to Vortex Spring, for instance, and our local Pennyroyal site hosts a lot of training in my region.

I can see why someone would have reservations about training people for their check-out dives in conditions they can't cope with! (If those are the only conditions reasonably available).

Richard.

 

[DCBC]

Reading DCBC's post, I keep coming back to the point that not all divers dive locally...

That's true. If this is the case, I refer them to an Instructor who's program is designed for such conditions, or simply refer them for their OW. If however they are intending to dive locally, I see no reason why they should take any course that won't prepare them to dive safely. As negligence is deemed to be an act or omission, I believe it reasonable for the Instructor to ensure that the student possess the necessary knowledge and skill-sets to enable them to dive in local conditions. Any Agency or Instructor that doesn't ensure this, is missing something.

...I can see why someone would have reservations about training people for their check-out dives in conditions they can't cope with! (If those are the only conditions reasonably available).

Especially when the training standards can't reasonably hope to accomplish this before the training begins and any change to the curriculum is prohibited by the Agency.

 

[Divescape]

Just my two cents, and a credit to not just minimum standards met. On our Padi OW dive 2 my wife struggled on the sea dive with her hoodie, it got the better of her psycologically and she exited before compleating all the skills, our dive centre called her back to the pool and had her just sit on the bottom of the pool for an hour with her hoodie on, then for a further three hours they drilled her on skills before sending her back to the sea to complete dives 2 to 4. So big credit to them. we only paid an extra boat fee, but she recieved 4hrs of additional instructor attention. PADI.

 

[Colliam7]

As someone observing the product, the modular approach just does not, in my experience, seem to work well for more extreme environs, perhaps it has something to do with the Law of Primacy, to be a truly adequate North Atlantic or North Pacific diver it is best to start off right and not have to unlearn a bunch of questionable habits and attitudes.

I think I understand this statement, but I am not quite certain. Thal, can you clarify what about the modular approach doesn't work well in extreme environments, or perhaps clarufy what you are referring to as the 'modular approach'? I am not disputing the statement at all, just trying to better understand the concept you are presenting.

As far as CPR and First Aid are concerned ... I consider those to be requirements for me to write a certification card or a reciprocity letter and I have never certified a diver who had not completed both prior to certification. If a diver doesn't want to meet that specification ... I can recommend many less stringent instructors.

This is a very reasonable approach, and I have to suspect that more than a few (independent) instructors do something like this - tell the prospective student, 'If you choose to train with me, this is what I expect. If that is not acceptable to you, I cn suggest other instructors with whom you may wish to train.'