Is it OK for newbs to start with doubles?

[cool_hardware52]

Instead of relearn, I would say "learn for the first time" in cold water. Like for instance staying close to your buddy since it's much easier to get separated, learning to do an open water ascent with no visual reference, managing thick exposure protection and the associated issues including weighting, and the trim/balance issues that can result if not done properly.
These are all things not necessarily experienced by warm gin clear water divers.

I say, if someone wants to get good at certain diving and conditions, then learn to do that diving in those conditions. There really is no substitute.

Semantics. Buoyancy is the thing that jumps out for me. Learning to dive in a skin and al 80 just does not prepare somebody for diving in a 7mm suit with the ballast required. I've seen countless "vacation" trained divers cork in cold water simply because they aren't prepared for the change in the buoyancy of their suit in the shallows. Either way the diver competent in cold water has little trouble adapting to warm, but the diver trained in warm has some holes to fill if they move to cold water diving. None are insurmountable, but they are real. The smart warm water diver making the transition to cold water will seek out divers doing the sort of dives they aspire to and *listen*.

Tobin

 

[KenGordon]

Buying gear before a course is often a mistake. Part of the learning is about the gear. A decent instructor will lend or hire kit.

There is no such thing as cold water, just the wrong suit. Get that sorted with the instructor before going to the site. Consider starting in a dry suit. That is common in the UK. If you want to blow money, spend it on the suit.

If you expect to dive a twinset giving actual redundancy then you either need independents or learn to do shutdowns. Both are more advanced skills than a typical OW course provides. Expect it to take longer and maybe be incompatible with 'regular' students. I'd probably recommend starting with the simpler single setup and then continuing afterwards but separately with twinset training. Something like an SDI OW followed by TDI intro to tech. As always you need to find an instructor who suits your learning style and is good at teaching the skills. These are rarer than you might hope, especially if you are after something different.

 

[halocline]

There is no such thing as cold water, just the wrong suit. Get that sorted with the instructor before going to the site. Consider starting in a dry suit. That is common in the UK. If you want to blow money, spend it on the suit.

No offense, but in this thread and countless others, "cold water" is a reference to the fact that the added exposure protection, either a drysuit or thicker wetsuit, requires additional scuba skills (primarily buoyancy control). So there definitely IS such a thing as "cold water" and it does have a significant impact on diving.

 

[Storker]

maybe get OW and some experience in doubles in warm clear water, and then seek mentoring and practice in cold water

Huh? That sounds like an unnecessarily roundabout way to learn to dive where you actually are going to dive. Are you seriously saying that one should travel to take the OW in conditions which are atypical for the type of diving one will do?

IME an OW student is so task loaded anyway that handling thick exposure protection, buoyancy swings and perhaps a DS is just icing on the cake. The learning curve is only marginally steeper.

If you're planning to dive in cold water conditions, get certified in those conditions

 

[cool_hardware52]

Huh? That sounds like an unnecessarily roundabout way to learn to dive where you actually are going to dive. Are you seriously saying that one should travel to take the OW in conditions which are atypical for the type of diving one will do?

IME an OW student is so task loaded anyway that handling thick exposure protection, buoyancy swings and perhaps a DS is just icing on the cake. The learning curve is only marginally steeper.

If you're planning to dive in cold water conditions, get certified in those conditions

Ya, much better to learn to first learn to operate an auto on the freeway at rush hour than to start in an empty parking lot.

Are you seriously saying that being trained in warm water will somehow permanently damage a diver making them incapable of adapting to other conditions?

Warm clear water is a great place to tryout a variety of gear, and then seek mentoring / training for the specific conditions one will be diving in. (Pretty sure that why virtually *every* BOW class starts in a swimming pool)

Can a diver start in cold water? Sure. I learned by diving in the cold, low vis conditions typical of California shore diving.

Cold and low vis and surf aren't really an issue for me, but they are for many people. I have no doubt that it would have been easier in warm, calm, clear water, particularly for those that may be less comfortable in the water.

Nobody here is suggesting that training is warm clear water adequately prepares one for other conditions, it just makes initial training easier. Hardly a radical concept.

Tobin

 

[KenGordon]

No offense, but in this thread and countless others, "cold water" is a reference to the fact that the added exposure protection, either a drysuit or thicker wetsuit, requires additional scuba skills (primarily buoyancy control). So there definitely IS such a thing as "cold water" and it does have a significant impact on diving.

You have never heard the joke "There is no such thing as bad weather, only the wrong clothes." I suppose?

---------- Post added December 19th, 2015 at 08:00 AM ----------

Ya, much better to learn to first learn to operate an auto on the freeway at rush hour than to start in an empty parking lot.

Are you seriously saying that being trained in warm water will somehow permanently damage a diver making them incapable of adapting to other conditions?

There are pros and cons to going somewhere warm to train. As you say it is easier initially and a better progression. On the other hand he will need support when first dealing with the cold water and it sounds like support is an issue. He should probably find two instructors, both happy to start in a twinset, with all that entails. Plus the extra cost and hassle.

Sometimes,when faced with people turning blue in February, I think, "**** this, let's just take them all to Egypt for a week.". But that costs everyone time off work, a pile of logistics and a bit of money.

 

[Storker]

Are you seriously saying that being trained in warm water will somehow permanently damage a diver making them incapable of adapting to other conditions?

Of course I don't, don't be silly. And drag that strawman back into the barn where it belongs.

 

[chrisch]

It's not glass. But they have classes there all the time. Just classic green NE water. But the good news is, no currents, and it's spring fed with no swimming/fishing or anything that'll silt it up. I'll definitely be seeing plenty of pro training before any dives. Not worried there.

But I'm going to want some form of personal redundancy before anything deep.

What do you consider to be "deep"? And why do you think you need redundancy for depth?

The primary reason to have redundant gas is for a situation where catastrophic gear failure combines with no available buddy to share gas with. Even those of us that dive doubles and undertake decompression diving do not expect such a situation to occur very often. Your buddy should be - as you progress into deeper, more demanding diving - a key part of your "equipment". I would not dive beyond 100-120 feet with someone that I did not know and had just met on a boat and the expect that person to be a reliable backup source of gas. But in practice I would never find myself in that situation. Like a lot of experienced divers I tend towards self reliance. (There is now even a PADI course for this!)

However, at that level you should be at the very least running some sort of dive plan. That means you have a forward idea of your gas consumption and decompression requirements. Not perhaps a formal plan but at least an idea of what you want to do, what is the point at which you begin the ascent and which part of your "team" is responsible for what. Who will launch the dSMB, which person uses the most gas and therefore is the most likely to trigger the ascent. Do you both run the same computer algorithm? What personal variations, age, body mass, or other factors affect the decompression obligations. Do you plan a mandatory decompression stop (you have left PADI behind now) or just a no-deco dive with a safety stop? If the latter how much bottom time is acceptable? Do you plan (both of you) to extend the bottom time with EAN? If so what are you both planning to use and do you carry enough of it? Have you made a gas management plan and will your gas supply provide adequate back up for your buddy? What is your buddy's gas consumption rate?

Or just strap on a pony with no training and think you have got all that covered.

A redundant source of gas is important when there is no buddy. Buddy separation is most likely in conditions of very poor visibility. If you are diving in those conditions then you still need a plan. What will you do if you are separated? Do you both have redundant gas sources or is your buddy reliant on you. Could you perhaps use a buddy line?

There is a huge amount for you to learn as you move on from the basics. It's very easy to see redundant gas as a "must have" and many people do, but they haven't really thought about why. People talk about not trusting the buddy time and time again. But that cuts both ways. The idea of mutual reliance is the heart of the buddy system. If one half of that "team" doesn't trust or need the other then it is not a team, just two divers that start the dive together. As soon as you accept that you have abandoned the buddy system and are a solo diver. Nothing wrong with solo diving if you have the right equipment and training. But the one thing I would say about solo diving is that it is not generally deep diving. So your requirement for redundant gas due to depth is not fully thought through. The deeper you dive the more important the buddy becomes.

The other reason I see often that people want a redundant gas source is the fear of free flow due to depth and cold water. Again it bears some analysis. If your primary regulator free flows due to cold and depth why will the pony regulator somehow be OK? If the pony reg is better suited to cold and depth why not use that reg as a primary? If the water conditions are likely to give this problem then two divers breathing off a single first stage is bad news. However, in nearly 30 years diving in mostly cold water I have never had a free flow.

In summary try to think through what you are trying to achieve. What is driving you to want a redundant gas source and whether you really do need it. Please by all means move to doubles if you think you will want to progress your diving later on. The sooner you start with them the sooner you will get used to them and be comfortable with them.

 

[Storker]

I think this^^^ is one of the best posts I've read about redundant gas options and buddy diving philosophy.