Is it OK for newbs to start with doubles?

[Tracy]

And when you get ready for some doubles, give me a shout. I am in Detroit and currently selling most of my doubles. I can meet you at a quarry in Ohio just about any time.

 

[Buliwyf]

Sounds great. Thanks.

 

[chrisch]

A pony tank is a backup for everything going wrong and no buddy to breathe off his/her AAS. They are popular with pessimists Doubles offer a similar backup source of gas but you need to be able to shut the valves down to do this effectively. Many people think you need no training with a pony and certainly they are simple enough in theory, but as you have already seen a lot of people end up with xmas tree set ups and several folk have chosen the wrong tank and drowned - pony tanks have their issues. I don't much like them.

As a new diver the main reason you will be encouraged away from doubles is that they carry enough gas to take you into decompression - for which you have not been trained. You cannot simply head back up at 150psi or whatever your agency put forward as the figure. Being encouraged away is not being told you cannot.

A small set of doubles is a good way to dive. With a drysuit and BP/W you will be comfortable and will be able to continue your training in that set up. If you want to learn how to shut down the valves (please do) then there are a number of courses out there that will achieve that goal. Or just book an instructor to help you one-to-one. If you decide to take your diving further you are already ahead of the game.

Be careful about what conclusions you come to about pony tanks. A lot of people that have them don't really know why or think through their equipment needs. A pony is for self bailout. If you are solo diving it is a fine idea and you should have one. Really bad visibility situations where buddy separation is highly probable is another use for them. If the user simply doesn't trust their buddy then we end up in a circle and every one needs a pony, so every one is really diving solo. Nothing wrong with solo diving if you are trained to do it, but a situation where one person is trained to buddy dive and is buddied up with a solo diver is a bad situation. You will find a lot of discussion on pony versus doubles on the Internet.

It has become the "norm" with doubles to have a long primary hose and use that as the AAS to donate to a diver needing help. It's not essential but again something you might want to look at or at least have a read about.

If I were starting over I would look at a small set of double early on, but then I say that to get me where I am now. When I started diving I never imagined I would ever dive a cave or breathe trimix. Even nitrox was unheard of back in the day, I certainly never knew anything about it. So really to answer your question - yes you can think about doubles early on, the question for you is why? It is certainly a neater way to have some backup than the pony tank xmas tree solution. I don't know what sizes you can get in the US but we have twin 7s. (A little bigger than 2 times 40cu ft) and they are very nice to dive. They sit flat on your back and have a lower profile in the water. My wife loves them and dives them all the time even for OW level dives. With a membrane drysuit and BP/W you can get away with much less lead on the weightbelt as well. I see nothing wrong with that kind of setup from the get go if you wanted.

 

[Patoux01]

As a new diver the main reason you will be encouraged away from doubles is that they carry enough gas to take you into decompression - for which you have not been trained. You cannot simply head back up at 150psi or whatever your agency put forward as the figure

Yeah, but that's kind of a rubbish reason. It's the diver that dives the gear, not the other way round. Anyone is able to get himself in trouble even on a single tank (just think of those guys dropping to 50m with a single 12l tank, there's plenty of them around in some countries in Europe...).

Doubles are, imo, not a problem for a beginner. There's no need to start with doubles 18l, that's ridiculous. But I'd rather strap twins 8.5 on my back than a single 15l tank as is "the norm" in my area. You just have to be aware that until you know and are confident in your skills to close the valves, they do not add safety over a single tank.

 

[AJ]

As a relative new diver (136 dives) I might add something to this discussion. I started my diving career with a single 12L BP/W config. I moved on to a D12 BP/W config. The most critical issue I had was staying in trim while wearing a drysuit. I had (and still have) a tendacy for floaty feet (not uncommon with doubles). Controlling trim took a lot of time practicing skills. Just about now (70 dives or so with D12), I'am really getting the hang of it (meaning GUE standard hanging still keeping trim, controlled back kick, controlled heli turns, etc.). On the other hand, I like the stability of my D12 very much. Less tendancy to roll than my single tank config.

As far as I'am concerned you should be able to learn to dive with doubles. It's just another tool with different characteristics.

 

[rhwestfall]

Cool, I'll lose the combo inflator. Thanks. So I think I'll just tear it down to a single tank setup for travel. I'll have to check out Dive Right. There's a few trainers in the Akron Ohio area that sound decent.
www.deepsixspecialists.com/
www.atlantisoutfitters.com
www.luv2scuba.com


No interest in cave diving. A little too freaky for me. Walking in them is odd enough:
Seneca Caverns Bellevue Ohio
And flashbacks to being a stupid kid playing, nearly dying, in old PA coal country mine sites, might not work out too well either.

Lots of good advice from Tb, Tobin, et al.

I will also add:

The folks at Deep Six Specialists in Akron are really good people. I have had the pleasure of diving with many of the staff over the recent years on charters. Buddying with them, sharing a table for an evening meal, and just talking with them, they are "real divers". Talk with them as to your hopes. They will put you on the right track. Nice to have a local connection to kick things around with.

Have fun!

 

[Kairoos]

A pony tank is a backup for everything going wrong and no buddy to breathe off his/her AAS. They are popular with pessimists Doubles offer a similar backup source of gas but you need to be able to shut the valves down to do this effectively. Many people think you need no training with a pony and certainly they are simple enough in theory, but as you have already seen a lot of people end up with xmas tree set ups and several folk have chosen the wrong tank and drowned - pony tanks have their issues. I don't much like them.

As a new diver the main reason you will be encouraged away from doubles is that they carry enough gas to take you into decompression - for which you have not been trained. You cannot simply head back up at 150psi or whatever your agency put forward as the figure. Being encouraged away is not being told you cannot.

A small set of doubles is a good way to dive. With a drysuit and BP/W you will be comfortable and will be able to continue your training in that set up. If you want to learn how to shut down the valves (please do) then there are a number of courses out there that will achieve that goal. Or just book an instructor to help you one-to-one. If you decide to take your diving further you are already ahead of the game.

Be careful about what conclusions you come to about pony tanks. A lot of people that have them don't really know why or think through their equipment needs. A pony is for self bailout. If you are solo diving it is a fine idea and you should have one. Really bad visibility situations where buddy separation is highly probable is another use for them. If the user simply doesn't trust their buddy then we end up in a circle and every one needs a pony, so every one is really diving solo. Nothing wrong with solo diving if you are trained to do it, but a situation where one person is trained to buddy dive and is buddied up with a solo diver is a bad situation. You will find a lot of discussion on pony versus doubles on the Internet.

It has become the "norm" with doubles to have a long primary hose and use that as the AAS to donate to a diver needing help. It's not essential but again something you might want to look at or at least have a read about.

If I were starting over I would look at a small set of double early on, but then I say that to get me where I am now. When I started diving I never imagined I would ever dive a cave or breathe trimix. Even nitrox was unheard of back in the day, I certainly never knew anything about it. So really to answer your question - yes you can think about doubles early on, the question for you is why? It is certainly a neater way to have some backup than the pony tank xmas tree solution. I don't know what sizes you can get in the US but we have twin 7s. (A little bigger than 2 times 40cu ft) and they are very nice to dive. They sit flat on your back and have a lower profile in the water. My wife loves them and dives them all the time even for OW level dives. With a membrane drysuit and BP/W you can get away with much less lead on the weightbelt as well. I see nothing wrong with that kind of setup from the get go if you wanted.

I understand your POV, but I will disagree, you make it sound like taking a pony tank is a bad decision. Just because you have a pony doesn't mean you're in a solo dive mindset. If a buddy has an issue I will hand my pony over and stay with them, or donate my primary to them and take my alternative reg.

You talk about trusting your buddy, and I think trust doesn't have to go both ways. I can dive with a new diver, and not trust him, but he can trust me to be there for him. The pony is just there for a catastrophic failure of my primary air source. You don't need to have a solo diver mindset just because there's a redundant air source available to you.

Here in South Florida we're drift diving, and the visibility isn't always great, like the past few weeks have been maybe 5 feet? Not conditions I want to rely on a stranger in.

 

[Dhboner]

I love your enthusiasm but I think you need to find an instructor/mentor you trust and talk to that person about where you are, where you want to go and what you will need. Diving manifolded doubles requires the ability to reach back and perform a shutdown relatively quickly while maintaining your position in the the column. That is pretty tricky for an experienced diver never mind someone new to the sport. My advice would be to follow Tobin's suggestion and consider "scaleable" gear like a BP/Wing with a single tank adapter, find a really good instructor that you can work with as you progress.

 

[tbone1004]

biggest thing i would recommend against is the air2 style inflator. They are not good for much of anything and you are best off to learn without it. Matching first and second stages is imho the best way to handle this. You will figure out weighting on your own eventually, but much of it will depend on which tanks you choose. I.e. an AL80 requires 8lbs more lead to sink when empty than a Worthington X-100, and when you travel it will be predominantly al80's. LP72's require about 4lbs less lead than an AL80 and are great small doubles to learn on.

 

[stuartv]

If I were you I would consider an AL30 or AL40 for a pony and an HP117 if you're short, an HP133 if you're of modest height, and an HP149 if you're pretty tall. You can also go doubles down the road by purchasing a manifold and a same size tank, no need to jump the gun.

@Buliwyf: If you start buying tanks, here are a few things I learned in the 1 year I've been diving so far:

- The "same" tank from the same manufacturer is not always the same. E.g. if you buy a single HP100 today, counting on buying a manifold and another identical HP100 later, you might find that it is really hard to find an HP100 that is identical to the first one you bought. Though I do think that is less likely to be a problem if you're buying brand new of recent manufacturer. But, I read a story here on SB earlier this week about a guy that bought an HP100 at one shop, but only one because that was all they had in stock. Then he bought another one (both brand new tanks) that was the same manufacturer and model, from another shop, and it turned out they were slightly different such that it made him tip to one side when he used them as doubles. Though they were both "new", I think one was a bit older and had been sitting in that shop's inventory for a while.

- My personal opinion is, if you're going to buy a single tank, you may as well buy two. How often are you going to go diving where you only want to use one tank in a day? Using two tanks (or more) in a day seems much more normal. Buying two of whatever tank you decide on then goes along with the first point to ensure that, whenever you're ready, you can put them together into a twinset with no problems.

- A used set of doubles is a LOT cheaper than buying 2 new tanks, bands, a manifold, and valves. You can split them up for, worst case, the cost of a couple of plugs, and use them as singles until you're ready to put them back together again. I now have 3 sets of doubles that were all purchased used, some of which I have been using in exactly that way (split up and plugged).

- Breaking doubles down into singles is no big deal (if you have plugs that you know are O2 clean). But, at least for me, when I go the other direction, assembling them back into doubles, I generally pay my shop to do it. I have my tanks O2 clean and having the shop remove plugs and reassemble them with the manifold and bands includes them making sure the manifold is O2 clean so the whole package is still O2 clean when it is together. It's not THAT common, I guess, but I have gotten at least one fill recently from a shop that required O2 clean tanks for Nitrox because they do partial pressure blending. So, for me and where I go, it's important (to me) to have tanks that are O2 clean.

- I got an AL30 for a pony bottle (fortunately, cheap and used) and was informed not long after, when I started taking Tech training, that I needed to have an AL40 for class. The difference in size doesn't seem to amount to a hill of beans to me, when I'm in the water. So, if you do pursue getting a pony bottle, I'd say that you should do as tbone says and look ahead to your goals and work backwards to what you buy now. That might result in you deciding to get an AL40, instead of an AL30. I'm not very experienced, myself, but I don't know of any downside to having a 40 over a 30.

- As I have progressed from zero 1 year ago to today, I had a lot of the same thoughts you have expressed. Since you seem less concerned with the expense of things (and I have done a lot of motorcycle racing myself, so I understand where you're coming from), I'd say that you might consider, instead of buying a reg set now that you plan to use with singles and doubles, you might consider just getting a reg set for singles now and getting a separate reg set for doubles later. And, of course, if you get a pony, it will need its own reg set. Each set uses the same basic components, of course, but each one optimally has its own lengths of hoses for the regulators, the pressure gauges, and low pressure inflator hoses. The pony/deco bottle may even use a different kind of SPG. Some people like a big button gauge for that. I think most people doing tech diving have a set of regs for doubles, a reg set for each deco bottle they use, and then, if they do any single tank diving, they have a separate reg set for that. Using an H valve is all well and good if you have your own tanks and only ever use them. But, if you ever plan to use rental tanks (at least, at warm water dive destinations), they are probably not going to have an H valve and you'll be wanting a "normal" recreational single tank reg set configuration.

- I have a DSS SS BP and a DSS Kydex BP. I paid $35 for the former, complete with LCD30 wing and harness. I paid $20 for the Kydex BP. They are both really nice. I have seen none better. But, there is no way I'd pay $200+ for one. If I lost either one and needed it to replace it immediately (i.e. no time to shop around and wait to find a used one), a DGX or Hog aluminum plate for $80 ($60 with some current sales) or DGX or Hog or Dive Rite SS plate for $100 (or less) is the way I'd be going for sure. If I were only going to have one BP, I'd just have a SS one. The only time it would be too heavy and I'd feel like I needed a lighter (AL or Kydex) plate would be some warm water situations that have, thus far, not even happened for me. Diving in the Caribbean and off Hawaii, I have still worn a full 3/2mm wetsuit with an AL80 and used the SS BP without being over weighted. Warm water and a steel tank (e.g. HP100) or warm water, no wetsuit at all, and an AL80 are the only situations I can think of (for single tank diving) where I think a SS BP might really be TOO heavy for me. And even for those, if it's salt water, the SS BP would probably still be okay.