Is it OK for newbs to start with doubles?

[chrisch]

.... I want to get as much learned before training as possible. It so much easier to learn when I'm already half way there. So I won't be overloaded by what doesn't matter, and can concentrate on the important stuff. And I don't want to be the newb that asks for tons of advice, and then follows none of it.

Have a quick read of the GUE configuration - you don't have to follow it totally but it will help you see what the way forward is in terms of doubles and how it will be different to your single outfit.

https://www.globalunderwaterexplorers.org/equipment/config

Do try to get to look at a few well set up doubles before you buy your kit. Avoid gimmicks and stick to good quality basics and you will not go far wrong.

All the best with your diving.

 

[shoredivr]

Here's my 12 year old daughter in a set custom set of al 30's doubled up.
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-0/p296x100/390892_378127998926998_448887507_n.jpg?oh=d0bc7a2d50e513123496e8a94fed9092&oe=56E16924

Now that is cool!

---------- Post added December 17th, 2015 at 09:35 AM ----------

Be careful about what conclusions you come to about pony tanks. A lot of people that have them don't really know why or think through their equipment needs. A pony is for self bailout. If you are solo diving it is a fine idea and you should have one. Really bad visibility situations where buddy separation is highly probable is another use for them. If the user simply doesn't trust their buddy then we end up in a circle and every one needs a pony, so every one is really diving solo.

There's another reason to use a slung AL 30 or 40. The OP lives around the Great Lakes, where really cold water (below 42F) is common year round below the thermocline. Free flows are a real possibility. More Great Lakes divers are carrying a 30 or 40 because when having a free flow, on switching to your buddies' octo, the extra demand placed on the buddies' regs can cause *their* regs to free flow also. Having your own redundant 30 or 40 cu ft is a reasonable gear choice. (Sure, you can try breathing around a free flowing reg that has frozen open and end the dive, but it is so much easier to switch to the slung tank and end the dive.)


Of course there is the total redundancy of sidemount, too. No need to get tank bands and manifold either. Open water could be taken in sidemount.

 

[Buliwyf]

Now that is cool!

---------- Post added December 17th, 2015 at 09:35 AM ----------



There's another reason to use a slung AL 30 or 40. The OP lives around the Great Lakes, where really cold water (below 42F) is common year round below the thermocline. Free flows are a real possibility. More Great Lakes divers are carrying a 30 or 40 because when having a free flow, on switching to your buddies' octo, the extra demand placed on the buddies' regs can cause *their* regs to free flow also. Having your own redundant 30 or 40 cu ft is a reasonable gear choice. (Sure, you can try breathing around a free flowing reg that has frozen open and end the dive, but it is so much easier to switch to the slung tank and end the dive.)


Of course there is the total redundancy of sidemount, too. No need to get tank bands and manifold either. Open water could be taken in sidemount.

Yeah, I've read alot of the accidents were free flow panics. Someone recommended the Atomic M1. And while it would be nice to have an identical M1 for the octo, I might get an equally good diaphragm reg for that. Hopefully different enough so they are less likely to fail under the same cold water circumstances at the same time.


Read the GUE setup. Good stuff there. Thanks.

 

[tbone1004]

I'd avoid pistons for cold water use personally. Sealed diaphragms aren't apt to freeze up on you, especially for the pony where it won't be used. Adiabatic cooling is responsible for the freeze, so basically if it's below about 40F at the surface, don't breathe on the reg, especially if you're at the surface of the water, and try not to use the power inflator at the same time you're breathing and you won't have much if any issue. For the second stages, make sure they have a metal heat sink at the end of the body where the hose connects, and if it has an adjustment knob, that being metal is advantageous. Exhale slowly to help heat up the reg bodies on exhale, and it's basiclly a non-issue.

The Atomics can be sealed, but it is very expensive at time of service because they have to pack the chamber with grease which is about $30 for each first stage. Best to just get diaphragms if you are concerned about it as the environmentally sealed diaphragms don't have that extra expense during service and don't run the risk of salt water getting into the chamber and sitting there if the chamber wasn't packed correctly or it got too warm and started channeling.

 

[halocline]

When I get into this, most of my Ohio diving will be with strangers at first, and only my vacation dives will be with family.

I just do a ton of snorkeling lately and have always wanted to try scuba.

Easy resort stuff. I can always take apart a double setup for warm clear water, where I may not need redundancy at all.

-yoke convertor for the M1

Am I in over my head yet?

Yes, I'm afraid you're in over your head, metaphorically at least. So there's no problem in thinking past your training or experience, but actually diving that way is dangerous.

The part about your post that bothered me was a brand new diver (not even certified!) saying that he'd be diving with strangers in a cold dark quarry. Even though you certainly might be correct in assessing that doubles are a better gear option than a single tank with a pony (I would almost always agree with that scenario) the point is that brand new divers should not be diving in challenging situations without a trusted buddy. Single tank, double tank, wetsuit, drysuit, it doesn't matter. If you are in a diving situation where you need redundant air, that means you do not have immediate access to the surface and that's a big no-no for new divers IMO.

Dive safety is not about gear configuration, it's about diving with good judgement and trusted buddies that you can count on.

But, regarding your gear ideas, one thing that sticks out (literally as well as figuratively) was your plan to use a DIN reg and yoke tanks with an adapter. This is not a good idea; especially considering a DSS backplate which puts the reg very close to your head. (a good thing) Get a yoke first stage for your single tank set up and DIN for your doubles. By the time you get to the point of owning doubles, a drysuit, etc... an additional 1st stage is peanuts. Want to go even cheaper? Get either a yoke or DIN retainer for your reg and simply install it yourself as needed. It ain't rocket science.

I would suggest you take OW in a single tank, and then try both manifolded doubles and sidemount for a few dives. Do all this in warm clear water; there are excellent teachers in Bonaire, for example, that can help you with both the initial class and the technical configurations. You might really like sidemount better, in which case your whole doubles idea would change. The important thing is to try this stuff in very forgiving conditions; that will help you to build the best possible habits. As you get some experience, you can apply those habits to diving in cold dark water.

Once you have some experience, you'll find that diving with a single tank is not so different from doubles, but diving by yourself in cold dark conditions is VERY different than warm clear water with trusted buddies.

 

[Tracy]

I would suggest you take OW in a single tank, and then try both manifolded doubles and sidemount for a few dives. Do all this in warm clear water; there are excellent teachers in Bonaire, for example, that can help you with both the initial class and the technical configurations. You might really like sidemount better, in which case your whole doubles idea would change. The important thing is to try this stuff in very forgiving conditions; that will help you to build the best possible habits. As you get some experience, you can apply those habits to diving in cold dark water.

I really think learning to dive in cold dark water is not something that should be learned in warm clear water. When divers come here, you can always tell the warm clear water divers, in general, they suck.
I feel, learn to dive where you want to dive, in the end, you will be a much better diver for it.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I really think learning to dive in cold dark water is not something that should be learned in warm clear water. When divers come here, you can always tell the warm clear water divers, in general, they suck.
I feel, learn to dive where you want to dive, in the end, you will be a much better diver for it.

I would agree that cold water is a unique environment with challenges not seen in warm, gin clear waters, but I would also agree that for the brand new diver starting in warm water has some benefits.

When they move to cold, dark, low vis (sounds like fun already!) they need to be prepared to seek mentoring / training for those conditions, and be prepared to relearn a few things.

Tobin

 

[Buliwyf]

It's not glass. But they have classes there all the time. Just classic green NE water. But the good news is, no currents, and it's spring fed with no swimming/fishing or anything that'll silt it up. I'll definitely be seeing plenty of pro training before any dives. Not worried there.

But I'm going to want some form of personal redundancy before anything deep.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

When they move to cold, dark, low vis (sounds like fun already!) they need to be prepared to seek mentoring / training for those conditions, and be prepared to relearn a few things.

Instead of relearn, I would say "learn for the first time" in cold water. Like for instance staying close to your buddy since it's much easier to get separated, learning to do an open water ascent with no visual reference, managing thick exposure protection and the associated issues including weighting, and the trim/balance issues that can result if not done properly.
These are all things not necessarily experienced by warm gin clear water divers.

I say, if someone wants to get good at certain diving and conditions, then learn to do that diving in those conditions. There really is no substitute.

 

[halocline]

I really think learning to dive in cold dark water is not something that should be learned in warm clear water. When divers come here, you can always tell the warm clear water divers, in general, they suck.
I feel, learn to dive where you want to dive, in the end, you will be a much better diver for it.

Diving in cold dark water does take additional skills and is definitely more difficult, and you are right that learning in the caribbean does not qualify one to immediately dive in more difficult conditions. But with any skill activity, it's usually best to start with the easy stuff and then move on to continue learning more challenging skills. At least that's the way most precision skill activities that require training specific habits are taught.

So, in this case, maybe get OW and some experience in doubles in warm clear water, and then seek mentoring and practice in cold water.

---------- Post added December 18th, 2015 at 05:28 PM ----------

Instead of relearn, I would say "learn for the first time" in cold water.

I have to disagree; it's not 'relearning', it's adding news skills and techniques to a foundation of basic dive skills.

Somewhere I read that around 90% of people that take OW class, and pass, do not continue diving. While that number might be inaccurate, surely the large majority of people that are motivated enough to learn how to dive to plunk down a few hundred bucks never actually achieve their goal. To me this indicates kind of a systemic failure in the training of new divers. Maybe learning to dive in too-difficult conditions is a factor in this. That initial experience is pretty important.