Is it OK for newbs to start with doubles?

[Buliwyf]

I know it's more complex. But scuba gear seems fairly straight forward to me. With testing and setting proper buoyancy with no air in the wing being the most interesting concept so far.

I went to a Ohio quarry, and some of the divers were carrying quite large (LP30?) pony tanks and then had 3 secondary regulators. Some were pretty clean, some were Christmas trees. After a little asking around, it seems that most of the non-health related accidents were malfunction induced panics. So even if the pony is overkill, "It's peace of mind to just simply grab regulator #3 and ignore the leak or fullflow."

And someone else said "We can't solo here. So we buddy up by posting online, or at the club forums. I don't know these people. What good is a buddy I hardly ever dive with, in murky cold water. So my pony bottle is a nice option to have with a random buddy." I think he makes a good point about being self sufficient. He also said to check the accident threads here. Half of them involve: "Where'd Billy go? So we're mostly on or own." And also: "We like to rec dive with our tech setups, it's easy practice."

When I get into this, most of my Ohio diving will be with strangers at first, and only my vacation dives will be with family.

It just seems like a messy and unbalanced solution to have a Lp19 or LP30 pony bolted to the side of the main tank with another regulator on our shoulder. And the slung ponies would be in the way. Although, most of the Great Lakes action seems to be in the deeper quarry, and shipwrecks were doubles could be handy? Wouldn't a proper double tank setup be the way to go? The pony tank and it's regulator, are just about the same cost as the added bits needed for double tanks, so that's a wash. And isn't the added stability of the doubles a nice perk?

I'm just brainstorming gear. I don't get how doubles are any tougher to figure out than a single tank setup for a newb. I don't have a dive license yet. But have read the PADI book. (got to love Half Price Books, was $3.50, I think) I just do a ton of snorkeling lately and have always wanted to try scuba. At Key West, the assorted charters we did every day were less expensive than what I spent on food.

My sister and brother in law, want to do some dive resorts next year or the year after. Easy resort stuff. I can always take apart a double setup for warm clear water, where I may not need redundancy at all. Tank straps and a single wing would be all I need to swap over to a decent single setup. Wouldn't cost me hardly anything, but a little labor to switch over. Remove the manifold and put the tank plugs back in, and then I have two tanks to play with before vacation. Best of both worlds?

What I'm considering building:
-Double HP100's from a DGX kit
-DSS Kydex Plate
-DSS Torus 49 wing
-Atomic M1 DIN primary on one tank, with the basic gauge hose console on that tank as well.
-Atomic SS1 regulator/wing inflator on the other tank with an undecided DIN primary regulator.
-Wrist computer.
(after the basic classes of course)

Most likely a 7mm wetsuit with hood. I think I'll avoid water that's cold enough for a dry suit. For now.

And then for using a single setup:
-DSS LCD20 wing
-yoke convertor for the M1
-rental Al LP80 tank for vacations

But rental LP80's fit the HP100 double clamps, so maybe I won't bother and just stick with twins.

Am I in over my head yet?

 

[tbone1004]

well quick adjustment to terms. Most pony's are AL19's or 30's, LP is typically a low pressure steel designation. You will need to get your original cert in single tanks, I don't know of anyone doing OWT in backmounted doubles. Consider sidemount as it will give you some more freedom from the tanks. In ohio, I would go to Dive Right in Scuba over DGX since they have a better understanding of the diving you are doing.
You will not be easily able to double up al80's when travelling as the bands do not travel well, you will not be able to swap valves over to make them doubles, etc etc. If you want the redundancy when travelling, best to buy soft independent doubles bands and dive independent twins, but doing this you need 2 SPG's since you have to switch regs over.

Deep Sea Supply is a good choice for backplates and wings, certainly my preferred supplier for that gear, and those two wings would be my first recommendations. Kydex is good for travel, though depending on your weighting needs and how often you will be travelling, the stainless plate may be a good option.

Consider used tanks first, used doubles regularly go for around $500 and steel tanks have no real lifespan.

Do not buy a combo inflator, it will not be allowed in any technical classes if you take it in the future, buy a doubles kit if you are committing to doubles, cheaper that way.

Computer can be purchased before. I would wait a month or two for Deep 6 to get their products in and go with them for regulators and computer.

you're not necessarily in over your head, but you are certainly headed down the track of spending a lot of money on gear you don't necessarily need. The other option if you want regulator redundancy is to just use H-valves when at home where you still have independent regulators on the same tank. Much cheaper to get into than doubles and will be a very quick transition from the singles rigs you will be learning on.

Look at your end diving goals and work backwards. If that is great lakes wrecks, then consider making an excuse to go to Chicago and learn at Dive Right in Scuba where they will teach you properly from day 1. If it is cave diving, consider going to Florida and take OW in sidemount from a cave instructor to start you on the right path.

 

[Buliwyf]

Cool, I'll lose the combo inflator. Thanks. So I think I'll just tear it down to a single tank setup for travel. I'll have to check out Dive Right. There's a few trainers in the Akron Ohio area that sound decent.
www.deepsixspecialists.com/
www.atlantisoutfitters.com
www.luv2scuba.com


No interest in cave diving. A little too freaky for me. Walking in them is odd enough:
Seneca Caverns Bellevue Ohio
And flashbacks to being a stupid kid playing, nearly dying, in old PA coal country mine sites, might not work out too well either.

 

[tbone1004]

with that, i would still look at the end goal and work backwards. If you are going into doubles for the convenience of not having to carry a pony, it's not necessarily the best reason to go into them. If you want to learn in a backplate and wing, which it obviously sounds like you do, then I would find an instructor that will teach you in that configuration. Buy the regulators in a doubles kit and use H-valves for the time being if you want the redundancy on your own, and if and when you decide you need to invest in doubles, you will only need the doubles themselves and a new wing. I personally would start with a SS plate from Deep Sea Supply and work from there. A drysuit may not be a bad investment early on if you are planning on doing deep diving. I personally see no need for 7mm suits and semi-dry's because as soon as you start going deep they become a hazard to your buoyancy due to the compression losses as well as your thermal comfort because they compress. It's much different for dives less than 50ft, but anything deeper than that in water colder than 65-70 degrees and you are much better off in a drysuit. They can be had quite inexpensively if you shop around and Dive Right in Scuba will be able to help you out on that front, Deep 6 will also be carrying a line of drysuits coming out shortly.

Those are just my opinions.
Deep Sea Supply BP/W-$500
Doubles Reg Package-$700 For current regs I'd go Dive Rite XT, but the Deep 6 are worth waiting for
Computer-Deep 6 will be $150 and only computer worth buying other than a Petrel
Fins- $150. For backmount the Scubapro Jet fins are still the standard, but the Hollis F1 fins are better. You want heavy fins to offset the weight of the first stage assembly in backmount as well as the air in a drysuit

Not seeing anything on craigslist worth grabbing in your area, but don't be afraid to grab used gear from here as well.

 

[Kairoos]

One HP100 weighs 34lbs, so you're looking at 68lbs before counting any of your other equipment. I dive a "slung" pony every dive and I don't think it gets in the way. I actually love it because the way it hangs off the d-rings on my BC, I can sort of hug it, or just keep my hands on the valve or something. I stay pretty streamlined and it gives me somewhere to keep my hands.

If I were you I would consider an AL30 or AL40 for a pony and an HP117 if you're short, an HP133 if you're of modest height, and an HP149 if you're pretty tall. You can also go doubles down the road by purchasing a manifold and a same size tank, no need to jump the gun.

I carry an AL30 because I want to be ABLE to solve MY problems MYSELF. I dive with insta-buddies a lot, and they're always nice people, but a lot of the time they're inexperienced divers. Some people get the itch and they dive every few months. They don't own their own gear; they're using rental equipment from the charter. So they're probably not comfortable with their own gear! A lot of people just wander around and don't even look at their dive buddy, or the group they went under with. Someone behind them could have their regulator freeflowing, and they'd be swimming like a maniac towards the turtle they spotted. No thanks. I understand the power of the buddy pair, but I think if you value your life you should (within reason) have the ability to solve problems you may encounter yourself. So I think it's smart to be thinking about this ahead of time. I know after I got certified it was one of the first things I started thinking about; How can I add more redundancy to this?

 

[Buliwyf]

The 7mm will be gone before I start going past 60' I think. Sounds like the quarry's are cold. The dry suit is inevitable up here for the lakes. The redundant buoyancy could be handy, if it works.

A single setup with a AL30 pony is still on the table of course.

I'm 6'2", 255pounds. I get down to about 225 when I'm in shape. Quit downhill mountainbiking. Looking for a "safer" hobby to stay in shape with. Bikes cost more than motorcycles, and DHMtB is way too extreme right now. That's why I'm not concerned about scuba pricing or extra parts. It's dirt cheap compared to mountainbikes or motorcycles.

 

[tbone1004]

yes, but there are ways to blow a lot of money real quick. That's why I always have people work backwards from their gear. If you think drysuits make sense, then get one now. It isn't that much more complicated to use, it's not all that much more expensive than a high end wetsuit, and we use them up to 72 degree water in the caves.

 

[Buliwyf]

That makes sense. Do you just use thinner drysuit underwear in warmer conditions?

I may still try just a single tank setup and a pony. But the DSS plate and wing is a for sure. BCD's seem clunky, and oddly expensvie.

If I use the main regulator, combo reg/inflator as an octo, and the pony with it's regulator, it's still the same amount of hoses as a regular setup, just with a larger clunky inflator. Or can I just lose the octo completely and just use the pony as that? So that I still only have two regulators.

Does it matter what type of secondary reg is on the pony if it's just floating around loose, and aired up?

 

[cool_hardware52]

It's possible to start in doubles, but I would not recommend it. You are on the right track with a BP&W. In the majority of cases the same plate and harness can be used with both singles and doubles. You will need a dedicated single tank wing and a dedicated doubles wing. I'd be happy to discuss your options and provide a little insight as to how I would approach learning to dive, with doubles on the near horizon. I can be reached most weekdays 9-5 California time at 626-799-5074 Tobin


Here's my 12 year old daughter in a set custom set of al 30's doubled up.
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-0/p296x100/390892_378127998926998_448887507_n.jpg?oh=d0bc7a2d50e513123496e8a94fed9092&oe=56E16924

 

[Buliwyf]

Sounds like I have to find out if I need weight to sink, doubt it, and then how much extra for a dry suit. Guess the first step is to jump in a lake once I figure out dry suits.