Is horizontal position really better?

[The Chairman]

I have read it over and over in SB.

Citation, please. I imagine that you're misreading what's being posted.

I am not talking about swimming here.

??? You don't swim on Scuba? I do. That's when attitude really affects depth. Getting neutral is easy. Staying neutral while swimming seems to be the real problem.

I can launch my DSMB in a horizontal position,

I can do it from any position, however, I find it easiest to do it from depth, just as I leave the reef. I normally am vertical at my safety stop so I can turn easily to see boats approaching. I also spin slowly as I ascend those last twenty feet, also scanning for boats heading my way. When I cruise the reef though, I am usually right next to the bottom, checking out holes in the reef for critters. Once I find them, I can swim gently forward or backward, getting the perfect angle for a pic or three.

NSS-CDS does not have a monopoly on good instructors.

It's been my experience that the majority of NSS-CDS instructors are far more obsessed with trim than any other training agency, other than maybe GUE. I live in cave country, and I can usually tell who had what kind of instructor. There is only one current NSS-CDS instructor I would not recommend and even he stresses trim. I can't say that about any other agency, including GUE.

 

[The Chairman]

The point is you do all that practice and even paying people for coaching so that you can enjoy your diving in safety.

Or dive with people who are trim and neutral. We're having a ScubaBoard Invasion in Cozumel in a couple of months. People often join our motley crew with less than optimal trim and buddy skills. Without any finger-pointing involved, by the end of the week, they've picked it up. If asked, I'll do a workshop to help them out and I can't remember ever charging for this. Not that I'm opposed to being paid, but when you're diving with a good group of divers, then you can learn a lot while having the time of your life.

 

[tursiops]

What's the difference between a "speciality" course and "coaching"?

I assume this is rhetorical, since I explained the difference in the post you quoted.

When you're struggling with basic skills such as finning, having handfuls of certifications won't help at all

A certification only means you completed a course.

Experts teach skills; "Specialities" are often taught by people who aren't experts (rumour has it that instructors buy their specialities after doing their Instructor courses).

Experts teach. It might be a formal specialty with a certification at the end, it might be just coaching.

Your continued denigration of any formal education suggests you have never had any quality formal education.

 

[Dody]

Citation, please. I imagine that you're misreading what's being posted.

I might not find one right away but you have to admit that there is a lot of sentences like good trim is horizontal, all the skills should be taught and performed horizontally… on SB.

??? You don't swim on Scuba? I do. That's when attitude really affects depth. Getting neutral is easy. Staying neutral while swimming seems to be the real problem.

What I meant was being static vs moving (swimming).

I can do it from any position, however, I find it easiest to do it from depth, just as I leave the reef. I normally am vertical at my safety stop so I can turn easily to see boats approaching. I also spin slowly as I ascend those last twenty feet, also scanning for boats heading my way. When I cruise the reef though, I am usually right next to the bottom, checking out holes in the reef for critters. Once I find them, I can swim gently forward or backward, getting the perfect angle for a pic or three.

It's been my experience that the majority of NSS-CDS instructors are far more obsessed with trim than any other training agency, other than maybe GUE. I live in cave country, and I can usually tell who had what kind of instructor. There is only one current NSS-CDS instructor I would not recommend and even he stresses trim. I can't say that about any other agency, including GUE.

 

[Celt]

Or dive with people who are trim and neutral. We're having a ScubaBoard Invasion in Cozumel in a couple of months. People often join our motley crew with less than optimal trim and buddy skills. Without any finger-pointing involved, by the end of the week, they've picked it up. If asked, I'll do a workshop to help them out and I can't remember ever charging for this. Not that I'm opposed to being paid, but when you're diving with a good group of divers, then you can learn a lot while having the time of your life.

A nice touch, a kind offer of a bit help beats a lecture any day of the week.

 

[VWRdiver]

Sometimes what I do on dives is stop and become motionless, I then close my eyes and see if I can feel any pressure difference in my ears.
Some people have accused me of sleeping on dives but what I am doing is seeing if I can maintain my depth. It's really difficult. You need to have a very keen sense of your own body.

Yeah, I've heard of people trying to feel it in their ears, but didn't know that could be used with anything smaller than a few feet. I'm definitely going to try that at my next safety stop. Stay neutral, and close my eyes, and really try to feel what is going on with my ears. Thanks!

 

[The Chairman]

Your continued denigration of any formal education suggests you have never had any quality formal education.

In reality, there are lots of Scuba Instructors who have no idea how to trim themselves out, much less teach that skill to others. It's not that he hasn't had "any" quality instruction, but that it can be a rare commodity.

I might not find one right away but you have to admit that there is a lot of sentences like good trim is horizontal, all the skills should be taught and performed horizontally… on SB.

Yep, and you'll find me posting that all the time. Why shouldn't you be able to do these simple, simple skills while horizontal? Like New York, if you can do it there, you can do it anywhere. One of my biggest pet peeves when living in the Keys. was to see a diver stop, descend, kneel ON THE REEF, and then clear their mask. OMFG, I saw that almost every dive. Arrrrrrgh! Get off my reef!!! That's not the same as saying you should never break from being horizontal.

So, this is a problem with reading comprehension. When we say you should be able to do all skills horizontally, does not mean that you have to always be horizontal. Hell, my students easily remove and replace their BCDs while being horizontal and maintaining depth. It's not that hard if you have the skills and the inclination. I wonder how many can say they did this in their class or can do it now?

What I meant was being static vs moving (swimming).

While the rest of us are talking about "both". Getting neutral without moving is quite easy. You see the guys showing off in their Budha poses like they've accomplished nirvana underwater. Meh. My favorite neutral moment was as an adaptive Scuba dive assistant. I took an autistic girl diving with DiveHeart in the Keys. She really couldn't kick and had no clue how to maintain her trim or buoyancy, so I became her DPV. She really, really wanted to see a shark, so I guided her along the bottom, maintaining both of our trims and buoyancy, as we searched. We finally chanced on a sleeping nurse shark, and so we ducked under the ledge to see it closely. She was so excited I could feel her shake!!! I backed us out after a bit and soon came on an opening in the same ledge. Sure, I could have gone over it, but a caver buddy was with me and I felt like a challenge. We angled down, twisted a bit, and then went upwards, and were rewarded with a stunning vista afterward not having touched a thing. My cave buddy followed us and admitted he hit the edge, so it wasn't that easy for one, much less two. A bit later, her normal DPV swam up and under us. She was upside down playing patty-cakes in trim with my diver. It was phreakin' awesome. Probably one of my most memorable dives ever.

While we're on that subject, if you want a real challenge and want to put some purpose in your diving, find Diveheart! Become a volunteer and really put your trim/buoyancy to the test. I guarantee that you'll get ten times more out of any time and effort you put into it. They even have a forum on here and would love to recruit you: Diveheart

 

[VWRdiver]

@VWRdiver A balanced rig means different things to different divers. For most, it means that you can swim up your rig if you lose your bladder. For some of us, it also means that you can relax, close your eyes, and easily maintain a horizontal attitude. It's one of the most important things to do before or during a cavern class, which is why I recommend it to all OW divers. THAT is the best class for learning trim and propulsion if taught by an NSS-CDS instructor. Control equates to fun, comfort, and safety underwater. Anything that increases your control, or makes it easier, is well worth the time and effort.

Oh, okay. You were speaking about trim, gotcha. Yeah, I can feel my trim in the water quite well, but feeling minute changes in depth without visual reference was what I was talking about. I guess I've mainly heard the term 'balanced rig" used in the context of buoyancy, not trim, but I guess it can mean both. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Wibble]

I assume this is rhetorical, since I explained the difference in the post you quoted.

A certification only means you completed a course.

Experts teach. It might be a formal specialty with a certification at the end, it might be just coaching.

Your continued denigration of any formal education suggests you have never had any quality formal education.

Question: how can you "pass" a coaching session when the whole point is you go off and practice more until you get it right?

Education's way overrated. Seriously. All education does is show you the path to follow and coaching will keep you on that path.

This ridiculous "speciality course" card collecting is purely a money-making exercise promoted by the agencies. Especially so for the core skills. Clue; you pay the mentor for their skills, not the agency. PPB (Peak Performance Buoyancy) may get you from beginner to novice. Only your own dogged determination and practice will get you to intermediate and possibly accomplished, maybe eventually to expert.

It's no difference from playing an instrument. You start and it sounds bloody awful. Only if you stick at it with hours of practice will it move from hideous racket to just about bearable. Coaching and continuous practice takes that up through the levels.

We all know that the only way to improve is continual practice. How then is it possible that a single Speciality Course will ever take a novice to an intermediate level within a couple of day "course"?


We all know that the level of expertise one needs depends largely upon the environment and circumstances. However, good core skills should be the aim of every diver who intends to continue in this sport. It's safer, far more comfortable and massively easier.


Finally: dive with people with good skills and copy them. These people are easy to pick out as they're the ones who seem to be effortless in the water. They're more than happy to answer questions and proffer some advice.

 

[miked]

Back in 01/02, when DIR was in it's heyday, a couple of their acolytes used to promote this. They even asserted that you off gassed better while prone. Physics and physiology won out in the end. I don't think anyone still believes that you have to stay horizontal all the time anymore, though we are often portrayed as asserting just that.

I remember a (the?) very very heated, very long thread here on that topic (off gassing position).
Yes, a long time ago, yes I am old!