Is horizontal position really better?

[mcohen1021]

But, really, is the horizontal position always the best one?

No

 

[happy-diver]

Now, if I wanted to look at a pod of whales swimming all around me while I was 30' up from the bottom, I'd go vertical and watch them.

When watching whales above me I remain horizontal

 

[Wibble]

We are talking about different things. By "specialty" in this thread I think is meant a specific course of instruction, with a certification at the end.
Coaching, seminars, clinics.....these are all ways for an instructor to help someone, but there is no certification attached.
I gave an "intro to deco" seminar recently to some folks who wanted to know what their computer would do if they exceeded NDL, and how they should respond. They each used two computers, one set on Nitrox -- which is what they were diving -- and one set on air. They let the air computer go into deco for a few minutes, and then did what it said to do. They never actually exceeded their NDL for the gas they were breathing.

What's the difference between a "speciality" course and "coaching"?

When you're struggling with basic skills such as finning, having handfuls of certifications won't help at all as only your skills matter. Experts teach skills; "Specialities" are often taught by people who aren't experts (rumour has it that instructors buy their specialities after doing their Instructor courses).



Have been out diving over the Easter weekend. Lovely. Whilst on a large wreck of a Cunard liner in relatively poor visibility, I ended up finning through a constricting 'tunnel' where some superstructure had fallen over. Not a problem as the core skills come to the fore; using appropriate frog kicks and "mod frog" kicks, there's no kicking up the silt and ruining the visibility behind should I need to turn around and exit. Buoyancy is to be stable, not touching the bottom nor top and enabling one to stop if necessary. Trim was adjusted to match the 'tunnel' -- horizontal has it happened. In the end there was a small gap at the end which I swam though. It's the same for pretty much any penetration in a wreck or cave/cavern.

The point is you do all that practice and even paying people for coaching so that you can enjoy your diving in safety.

 

[VWRdiver]

The short answer is "no". Different conditions require different approaches.

The question behind the question is more important. Trim is usually only touched on in open water, and it's rarely defined adequately much less equated to being horizontal. I've even heard a few instructors explain it as not having a lot of danglies. Why? It's because, in an open ocean, you have little to restrict you from diving in most any attitude until you get to the bottom. It's then when your horrible trim wreaks havoc, both for the environment and your fellow divers. Unfortunately, the roto-tillers never see the clouds of silt they create. At their usual 45^o tilt they see only what's in front of them, while the mess they are creating is below and behind them. Consequently, I've seen horrible silters who believe their trim is impeccable. It amazes me just how much crap they stir up but think it's everyone else's problem and not theirs. Just like a few posters here on SB, actually, and thanks to the Mod who cleaned this thread up!!!

The real question then, is why are there so many divers that can't or won't dive horizontally when the conditions call for it? I don't really care how you dive 20 ft above the bottom, but why are you kicking the crap out of my reef when you're close? Why do you think we are being so unreasonable in wanting you to stop doing that? If you want to dive within an arm's length of the reef, but can't get horizontal and frog kick, then you're screwing it up. A soft horizontal flutter kick requires at least 4ft of clearance. An angled/overweighted flutter kick requires 10ft or more. However, a horizontal frog kick requires merely an inch or two, depending on your skill and situational awareness. It's my humble opinion that they aren't diving horizontally mostly because they can't. Few divers can hover two inches above the bottom, close their eyes for a minute or two and remain precisely where they started. Rather than commit the time, energy, and mental acuity needed to achieve this, it's easier to tell those who can that being horizontal is over-rated. Meh.

As for dive professionals having to dive in a supine position to herd their kittens: rubbish. Those are reminiscent of underwater forced marches as they try to push their herd to the next photo-op. I've taught and guided professionally, and the only time I do that is to show off or if we're at our safety stop and I'm mostly vertical already. It's easier to listen to what's happening around you and then lower your head and look between your fins if things don't sound right.

Honest question - how do people maintain depth within an inch or two without any visual reference for minutes at a time? It's not to difficult with open eyes, but how is it done without any reference?

 

[The Chairman]

and @The Chairman said he knows a couple, but I am skeptical it is said "over and over."

Back in 01/02, when DIR was in it's heyday, a couple of their acolytes used to promote this. They even asserted that you off gassed better while prone. Physics and physiology won out in the end. I don't think anyone still believes that you have to stay horizontal all the time anymore, though we are often portrayed as asserting just that.

 

[The Chairman]

learning to be neutral in an upright position is almost as important as in an horizontal one

Learning to be neutral while static is easy. However, once you add propulsion, things change. Getting horizontal allows your propulsion to be depth neutral. A diver @ a 45^o diver puts as much force going down as forward. You'll have to overweight yourself a good bit to be neutral while kicking. You'll also have to add air to stay neutral when you stop and add it back once you begin to move again.

 

[The Chairman]

Honest question - how do people maintain depth within an inch or two without any visual reference for minutes at a time? It's not to difficult with open eyes, but how is it done without any reference?

Diving a balanced rig. Getting balanced side to side is pretty easy. Getting balanced front to rear is often problematic. Shifting a steel tank is easiest as they have a lot of mass and it's pretty intuitive. An aluminum tank has far less mass and shifting it is counter-intuitive, so you'll do better moving weights forward or aft. Think of the benefits of not having to physically maintain your balance all the time. Your SAC will improve and you can really relax when you stop.

 

[The Chairman]

@VWRdiver A balanced rig means different things to different divers. For most, it means that you can swim up your rig if you lose your bladder. For some of us, it also means that you can relax, close your eyes, and easily maintain a horizontal attitude. It's one of the most important things to do before or during a cavern class, which is why I recommend it to all OW divers. THAT is the best class for learning trim and propulsion if taught by an NSS-CDS instructor. Control equates to fun, comfort, and safety underwater. Anything that increases your control, or makes it easier, is well worth the time and effort.

 

[Blackcrusader]

Honest question - how do people maintain depth within an inch or two without any visual reference for minutes at a time? It's not to difficult with open eyes, but how is it done without any reference?

Sometimes what I do on dives is stop and become motionless, I then close my eyes and see if I can feel any pressure difference in my ears.
Some people have accused me of sleeping on dives but what I am doing is seeing if I can maintain my depth. It's really difficult. You need to have a very keen sense of your own body.

 

[tursiops]

@VWRdiver A balanced rig means different things to different divers. For most, it means that you can swim up your rig if you lose your bladder. For some of us, it also means that you can relax, close your eyes, and easily maintain a horizontal attitude. It's one of the most important things to do before or during a cavern class, which is why I recommend it to all OW divers. THAT is the best class for learning trim and propulsion if taught by an NSS-CDS instructor. Control equates to fun, comfort, and safety underwater. Anything that increases your control, or makes it easier, is well worth the time and effort.

I agree with this, but would replace "NSS-CDS" with "good." The NSS-CDS does not have a monopoly on good instructors.