Is horizontal position really better?

[tursiops]

Question: how can you "pass" a coaching session when the whole point is you go off and practice more until you get it right?

Since by definition a coaching session is not a specialty class with standards for completion, there is no "pass" involved.

This ridiculous "speciality course" card collecting is purely a money-making exercise promoted by the agencies. Especially so for the core skills. Clue; you pay the mentor for their skills, not the agency. PPB (Peak Performance Buoyancy) may get you from beginner to novice. Only your own dogged determination and practice will get you to intermediate and possibly accomplished, maybe eventually to expert.

I'm not sure what you mean here. First you say it is promoted by the agencies; then you say the agencies don't benefit, only the instructor. You also conflate taking a specialty source (so as to get a formal introduction to some subject about which you know nothing and would like to avoid reinventing mistakes) with "card collecting."

It's no difference from playing an instrument. You start and it sounds bloody awful. Only if you stick at it with hours of practice will it move from hideous racket to just about bearable. Coaching and continuous practice takes that up through the levels.

Yet, people pay for music lessons. The lesson itself does not make you better, but it keeps you on the right path and not doing counter-productive things, gives you feedback, "coaches" you. The practice improves you; the lessons keep you on the right and efficient track. And, for many, keep you positive and encouraged.

How then is it possible that a single Speciality Course will ever take a novice to an intermediate level within a couple of day "course"?

Who said that it will? It sets you on the right path...then it is up to you. Far more efficient and effective than reading about something. Think "76 trombones."

We all know that the level of expertise one needs depends largely upon the environment and circumstances. However, good core skills should be the aim of every diver who intends to continue in this sport. It's safer, far more comfortable and massively easier.

Agreed.

Finally: dive with people with good skills and copy them.

This is the old, "Always play tennis with someone better than you" advice. But what about the person who is being copied? Paying for their time is fair, perhaps essential. That can be anything from paying for them to guide you for a day so you have someone to copy, to paying for some coaching on a specific topic, to paying for a formal class that gives you a credential that allows you to do certain diving. Think cave diving.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I dont think that anyone would say that watching around or looking up is more comfortable, natural or practical in an horizontal position. And it easier and less stressful on the neck sometimes. In my view, learning to be neutral in an upright position is almost as important as in an horizontal one and we should not criticize divers clearing their masks, launching their DSMB or doing their safety stops vertically if they don’t disturb the environment. That was really my only point.

And nobody in this thread has disagreed with your point. Nobody in that previous thread from a year and a half ago about this topic disagreed with that point, either. (And yet, the person who started that thread similarly was under the impression that there is some persistent inflexible dogma about "perfect horizontal trim" floating about SB and perhaps elsewhere.)

Back in 01/02, when DIR was in it's heyday, a couple of their acolytes used to promote this. They even asserted that you off gassed better while prone. Physics and physiology won out in the end. I don't think anyone still believes that you have to stay horizontal all the time anymore, though we are often portrayed as asserting just that.

I can only imagine. Way before my time. All I know is that none of my GUE instructors in the past 8 years have told me that I must remain in horizontal trim all the time on a dive. On the contrary, as you know, it's a necessary skill to be able follow the contours of a cave as the passages go up and down. But I have to admit, the skill of being in horizontal trim is so drilled into us in our courses that in some situations we forget it's okay, even preferable, to do something else. For some time after our original Fundies course my wife would try to descend from the surface in horizontal trim, until an instructor advised her to stay vertical until her head was underwater, THEN slide into horizontal trim, to better help vent the drysuit. I had told her I thought that was common sense, but she wouldn't listen to me until the instructor told her it was okay.

I might not find one right away but you have to admit that there is a lot of sentences like good trim is horizontal, all the skills should be taught and performed horizontally… on SB.

You (and others, such as the person who started that earlier thread) may be taking those "sentences" out of context. We need to keep in mind that when someone writes a statement like that on a forum like this in a thread discussing the benefits of horizontal trim, the person rarely takes the time to write all the caveats, exceptions, considerations, etc., along with the statement.

"All the skills" are taught horizontally in a course because making things more difficult than they might be in the real world--making the student work harder than might be necessary--is good training and helps build muscle memory. It's good for a diver to develop the muscle memory to perform the skills horizontally. When I practice the skills, I do them horizontally. On a real dive, horizontal may very well be the best position for doing certain things. Nevertheless, on a real dive, if the diver believes doing something in some position other than horizontal is preferable for whatever reason, the diver should do it that way. As I said in an earlier post, I wish this were explicitly mentioned in class. It may be that instructors think it's common sense and don't bother mentioning it.

 

[drakcheslav]

The lake we dive is full of much in the bottom, even tho it's crystal clear at the top. There's half a meter of silt if you try and kneel, so most of us learned to do it hovering. As for horizontal vs any other, keep feet up so you can see and not stir the bottom. After all the dives there, you get used to being horizontal.
Also, when in sidemount, it's not like there is any other trim than horizontal (there is, but horizontal is most cofortable).

 

[Wibble]

Since by definition a coaching session is not a specialty class with standards for completion, there is no "pass" involved.

I'm not sure what you mean here. First you say it is promoted by the agencies; then you say the agencies don't benefit, only the instructor. You also conflate taking a specialty source (so as to get a formal introduction to some subject about which you know nothing and would like to avoid reinventing mistakes) with "card collecting."

Yet, people pay for music lessons. The lesson itself does not make you better, but it keeps you on the right path and not doing counter-productive things, gives you feedback, "coaches" you. The practice improves you; the lessons keep you on the right and efficient track. And, for many, keep you positive and encouraged.

Who said that it will? It sets you on the right path...then it is up to you. Far more efficient and effective than reading about something. Think "76 trombones."

Agreed.

This is the old, "Always play tennis with someone better than you" advice. But what about the person who is being copied? Paying for their time is fair, perhaps essential. That can be anything from paying for them to guide you for a day so you have someone to copy, to paying for some coaching on a specific topic, to paying for a formal class that gives you a credential that allows you to do certain diving. Think cave diving.

I think we're probably in agreement.

To expand on the point about the speciality courses and agencies. Take an Open Water course: huge amounts of additional information and support are "added value" from the agency -- a complete book with all the presentation materials -- plus they're certifying you as being competent enough to have passed that course (and the agencies should be continiously evaluating the instructors).

Now compare with the common DSMB speciality: purely the instructor demonstrating how to do it and coaching a session or two in a lake. PPB (Peak Performance Buoyancy) can't be learned out of a book. Ditto drysuit, although there's that over-stated need of a tick-it to rent a drysuit (why?).

Those "speciality courses" depend almost solely upon the skills of the instructor; there's very little added value from the agencies. Thus pay the instructor directly and cut out the sponging agency for the worthless tick-it.



When a diver moves on to advanced topics -- I mean proper advanced courses, not Additional Open Water courses -- the general rule is you choose your instructor first. You must get on with that instructor and they need vastly superior diving experience way beyond the course you're taking. The agencies are almost irrelevant as the topics are pretty much the same across all of them. Cave training's all about the instructor. Advanced Nitrox & Deco Procedures too, especially for in-water skills. Normoxic/advanced trimix, MOD1, 2 and 3 are all about the instructor's skills. Whilst the courses are formalised, paying that instructor for additional mentoring sessions is a very good way of improving.

 

[The Chairman]

very very heated

Some would say candid and spirited! It really got testy after I pointed out that they must be DIR. Then it got funny when they admitted to be as much. DIR came out of a radicalized Hogarthian mindset. JJ never did like the DIR uber alles mindset, and did not allow it as a part of GUE from the beginning. I've met more than one GUE diver that would bristle at being compared to DIR for that very reason. I've often also been cited as being a DIR or GUE diver due mostly to my modified Hogarthian approach to diving. To think it all started with a stop sign and some milk jugs.

 

[ginti]

All I know is that none of my GUE instructors in the past 8 years have told me that I must remain in horizontal trim all the time on a dive.

I wrote a post a bit of time ago about being ready for the GUE cave2 and Meredith suggested that one should be very comfortable in non horizontal trim positions before to start this class... not only GUE instructors don't say you should always be horizontal, they actually tell you to train and feel comfortable in ANY possible trim (with good reasons obviously)

 

[The Chairman]

Meredith suggested

I've heard nothing but good about her.

 

[boulderjohn]

What's the difference between a "speciality" course and "coaching"?

Tursiops did it well, but he left out one aspect. He described a coaching session he did about how computers work with respect to deco. That sounds like a valuable coaching session from which any diers could benefit. It is something that should also be covered in the OW class, so the content is pretty standard, and there is no risk involved for the coach. I would not hesitate to teach such a coaching session.

I teach a distinctive specialty called Understanding Overhead Environments. That is a different kettle of fish. Even though it is a purely academic class, I have a legitimate fear that a student might do something I did not actually teach, go out and kill himself, and have his family sue me. I therefore have this class as a PADI-approved distinctive specialty. PADI looked over the entire content and approved it. If I am sued, I can point to that and say that the world's largest dive agency reviewed the content and gave it their OK.

I teach a couple other distinctive specialties for that same reason, and I made them distinctive specialties rather than coaching sessions on advice of counsel.

Question: how can you "pass" a coaching session when the whole point is you go off and practice more until you get it right?

In most classes, the purpose is to get you to a level where you have the basics down and then go out on your own to get as close to perfection as you wish.

This ridiculous "speciality course" card collecting is purely a money-making exercise promoted by the agencies.

Ini the distinctive specialty classes I offer, I provide all the academic materials, which I made myself. If the student wishes to have a card for it, the agency charges a fee for the card, and that is all the money they get from it. If the student does not want the card, the agency does not get a penny and does not even know the student took the class.

The student does pay me for the work I did both in creating the material for the class and for teaching it. Can you explain why you think I should not be paid for that work?

 

[Wibble]

In the distinctive specialty classes I offer, I provide all the academic materials, which I made myself. If the student wishes to have a card for it, the agency charges a fee for the card, and that is all the money they get from it. If the student does not want the card, the agency does not get a penny and does not even know the student took the class.

The student does pay me for the work I did both in creating the material for the class and for teaching it. Can you explain why you think I should not be paid for that work?

You absolutely should be paid for the work you do/did in developing the class.

One of the issues with Speciality Courses from the agencies is the race to the bottom regarding pricing. In fact all the courses they list: go to some resort location and haggle the price. Some dive shops will say no; others will take the money and try to fill the course to make something from it.

Maybe the better word to use would be mentoring. That's something that's well worth paying for but shouldn't involve an agency.

 

[Chavodel8en]

Dody, I recommend you take everything you read here, even from established posters, with a grain of salt.

I do believe there are posters here who are very militant about horizontal trim. I remember there was a thread here where folks were insisting on using ONLY their kidney dump, because they didnt want to break trim ... even for the 2 seconds to tilt up and dump using the elephant trunk?

However, I would say even the most extreme horizontal trim militant would allow a break in trim for exploring a wall, or looking up at a dolphin or whatever. It may not seem that way, because they are stressing the need for horizontal trim, but I would just assume they have that flexibility.

I believe that everyone can agree that you should be horizontal when swimming, or on top of a reef, surface, but other orientations are fine for other purposes. I dont see any controversy.