Is Deep Air / Light Deco (bounce?) Discussible on ScubaBoard?

[MauiScubaSteve]

In case anybody hasn't noticed, the following quoted post was post #88 on a thread where the vast majority of posts have been within the unstated definition of "adult discussion." Adults do not need a definition of "adult discussion"; to paraphrase Thal in this thread, we know it when we see it.

Well ... now that this thread has been moved and re-opened, I say yes ... let's do that. But let's first define what constitutes "adult conversation".

Adult conversation does not include making up demeaning names for people who don't support your position ... as you have.

It does not include disparaging the character, competence, and experience level of people you disagree with ... as knowone did.

It does not include making up lies about people, or accusing them of killing a dive buddy ... as VooDooGasMan did about TSandM.

NO, let's first straighten out the fact that if you don't let go of past transgressions between us I will resurrect the many demeaning names, disparaging character comments and lies you have made towards and about me, because I don't support your positions. There were many before I used an existing word to so aptly describe a group of similar minded members that the need for a definition has never been expressed, and there have been even more since.

 

[DevonDiver]

In case anybody hasn't noticed,.... Adults do not need a definition....fact that if you don't let go of past transgressions between us...moan, moan, moan...

...but hey, it's your​ thread... LMAO

 

[waterpirate]

That's exactly why I differentiate between technical and recreational 'deep air' diving. I don't know if my posts 'discourage' anyone from being involved in the thread, but I do a lot of deep air diving. Deep air wreck penetrations on virgin war wrecks at 260'. Deep air solo (night) dives at 280'. Literally hundreds of solo technical wreck penetrations using air as backgas in the 100-140' range.. There a number of reasons why I do this; helium cost and availability, personal capacity and honest risk assessment being the prime amongst them. If I only did a couple of these dives per month...then helium cost wouldn't be an issue.. I can get a big cylinder of He and mix my own at quite an affordable rate if I were just dabbling with these dives on the occasional weekend.

So you will trade safety over the economics??
Do you feel that your personal capacity and honest risk assesment are superior to Kirby's or any of the East coast giants that are no longer with us?

Just saying this rationalization to me does not hold merit. The rest of your post was recieved well and liked.
Eric

 

[knowone]

Bob, I know you get it.

Do you get that pigeonholing the masses in your quest, with bullying
feeds the stupid divers doing stupid fire and keeps these threads alive

Surely everyday somewhere in the world life is lost
to prevent the handing out of matches, and directions
to the library

 

[DevonDiver]

So you will trade safety over the economics??

Not at all.

Safety...and choice of an appropriate diving gas... is part of dive planning. Safety is an issue dictated by specific circumstances... and circumstances are not global.

The deeper dives that I mentioned... were 'historical'... not current practice. That said, those dives were quite 'survivable'.

Do you feel that your personal capacity and honest risk assesment are superior to Kirby's or any of the East coast giants that are no longer with us?

Not at all.

...and if I was diving on East Coast USA, my diving risk assessment would be very different to those created in warm, clear tropical waters.

Just saying this rationalization to me does not hold merit.

It wasn't meant to hold merit. I stated my experience so that my input couldn't be dismissed by some people as being biased, based on weak understanding or blinkered.

I also wanted to illustrate how my I tailor my input based on an appreciation of the audience - and how I try and demonstrate some ethical responsibility when approaching these 'types' of debates outside of the technical diving arena. I'm not a DIR zealot or otherwise blinkered into regurgitating a single-line approach to advanced diving topics. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am aware, though, that some people may make that assumption about me, because of my approach to discussing such issues within inappropriate forums.

However, the issue with cost versus safety is debatable. We all make compromises on safety because of expense - not just in diving, but throughout our daily lives.

What varies is the level of risk versus the amount of relative expense* versus the benefit/goal/outcome. (*cost as a proportion of available capital)

Example:


Highly experienced diver, on low income, with full technical training, completing 2 dives a day for a duration of several weeks, in ideal water conditions, at a depth where narcosis is moderate-severe. Use of Trimix unaffordable = cancel dive expedition. Use of air affordable = procede with dive expedition, ensuring the highest standards of support, contingency planning and application of full training/experience to ensure safety.

Here's another example:

Inexperienced diver, on moderate-high income, with basic recreational training, completing 2 dives a week, a few months a years, in demanding water conditions, at a depth where narcosis is moderate. Cannot obtain trimix due to lack of qualification. Does not understand benefits of trimix. Doesn't feel the need to take further training. Avoids deco by bounce diving to, or beyond, the depths to which they are certified and experienced.


Hopefully, that shows what I was trying to get at, in context to this thread debate topic.

 

[waterpirate]

I get your point but the fact remains that IMHO deep air picks when it will strike, not you. So regardless of the risk mitigation deep air = on any given day deep air will get you when the same dive the days before went off without a hitch.

On mix the one thing you can take to the bank is that as long as you do not bust your max depth you can pick a mix that will behave the same way day after day.

Warm clear water vs. cold and dark while it is a factor I am not chest thumping about the atlantic as we all have our home water so to speak and deep air does not care which water it is.

Unless something new pops up in this thread which I doubt, I am done. We should all just go diving
Eric

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

NO, let's first straighten out the fact that if you don't let go of past transgressions between us I will resurrect the many demeaning names, disparaging character comments and lies you have made towards and about me, because I don't support your positions.

Ah no ... you'd have to dig them out if you can ... because I demean your position ... not your person. I do, however, throw your own insults back in your face ... but why would you object to that ... they're your names, after all ... you created them ... you own them.

But what would I know about such things ... I'm just a "fringe" diver (your term) ... barely qualified to dip my toe in the swamp, as knowone so poetically put it.

Please, enlighten me.

There were many before I used an existing word to so aptly describe a group of similar minded members that the need for a definition has never been expressed, and there have been even more since.

AFAIK, "techspurt" is your word. I've been on the board a lot longer than you ... and have never seen anyone else use it. And given the context in which you use it, it's clearly not intended as a compliment.

But I see you're going to decline to answer the questions I posted ... which is a pity. Surely someone with your vast decades of experience could shed some light on what is the primary concern for those considering deep air diving ... narcosis management. Or is it that you don't, after all, want want to have an adult conversation? VDGM can verify that the scenario I posted actually happened just as I posted it ... so please explain how to avoid having the same thing happen to you ... or to someone who doesn't have your lengthy years of experience. Surely you or VDGM or knowone ... with your more than a century's worth of diving experience between you ... are capable of answering that simple question.

Because it is ... after all ... one of the primary risks the deep air diver faces.

How do you mitigate it?

Or do you just assume it won't happen?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

...but hey, it's your​ thread... LMAO

OK, nice to see the adults are all following along ... This thread has a two part OP;

For Starters: I'm requesting that each respondent make their first response without looking at the other responses; just respond based on this First Post. I'm most interested in each of your response to the underlined portion of Bob's quote above - "it's that they end up promoting the notion that this type of diving is somehow a "shortcut" to proper training and experience."

Do you think the many deep air / light deco (bounce?) threads are promoting deep air / light deco (bounce?) diving?

Do you think it would be helpful to an adult discussion to have working definitions about what we are discussing; like perhaps a definition of a deep air / light deco (bounce?) dive?

(the participants who at least half followed my request are most appreciated by me!)

and

I'm interested in discussing whether or not an adult discussion with regards to light deco deeper than 40 m air diving could benefit the never going to tech dive but probably will dive air deeper than 40 m divers in the world.

After a select deep air polling of experienced recreational divers and experienced recreational instructors here in one of the stupid expensive helium locals, I now encourage others to selectively poll in their respective locals; it was eye opening for me. I am blessed to have such good IRL relationships that blatant honesty spills forth with no qualms!

Personally, I can think of no "prohibition" on a freely accessible recreational activity that has has even had limited success. Even if not talking about it was a valid policy, we do seem to be talking about it, so why not talk about it in a way that helps those most in need of help?

It seems to me, since as DD so succinctly types, it's my thread; and I don't want us to get distracted, that what really needs defining to stay on topic is ...

"those most in need of help". So, in case you were distracted, the real topic of this thread is ...

so why not talk about it???

(deep air bounce, hardly any deco, if any???)

in a way that helps those most in need of help???

I think an argument could be made that since "Tech" money is being made by so many players, including the 800 pound gorilla, it's money that's making the real decisions. Perhaps poor third world natives are expendable in the grand scheme. Keeping the air knowledge from those without He seems to insures enough collateral deaths to make regular gruesome marketing pitches for the greedy with the He.

Standards allow today's beginning diver to be air certified to 130' deep in probably less than 20 days; but then 20 years later, perhaps more than 2 thousand dives later, that diver is a fool to go air deeper than 130'??? Speaking of Standards; how many of you remember typing something along the lines of ... PADI Standards really only apply to PADI Training and PADI Program dives? Are not the other agencies Standards along those same lines?

Standards shmandards; are there not many SB posts from Tech Divers, even supposedly respected Tech Instructors, talking about their solo cave diving. Tell me a major cave agency that condones solo cave diving. But most solo cave divers do spend some serious coin to get there, so it seems to be just fine to talk about it on SB!

And what about Rebreather Pilots and supposedly respected Rebreather Instructors? Think there are no posts on SB from them about solo rebreather cave diving? Think they spent some serious coin to get there? Are there any major cave or rebreather agencies that condone solo rebreather cave diving? But it seem to be just fine to talk about solo rebreather cave on SB!

If Solo Diving got a forum with just one really small agency certifying solo ....

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It seems to me, since as DD so succinctly types, it's my thread; and I don't want us to get distracted, that what really needs defining to stay on topic is ...

"those most in need of help". So, in case you were distracted, the real topic of this thread is ...

so why not talk about it???

(deep air bounce, hardly any deco, if any???)

in a way that helps those most in need of help???

How is continuing to attack the person of those who disagree with you helping those in need? I asked some substantive questions ... which WOULD help those who are considering this style of diving. You chose not to address them. How interested in helping others are you ... really?

I think an argument could be made that since "Tech" money is being made by so many players, including the 800 pound gorilla, it's money that's making the real decisions. Perhaps poor third world natives are expendable in the grand scheme. Keeping the air knowledge from those without He seems to insures enough collateral deaths to make regular gruesome marketing pitches for the greedy with the He.

Ah ... I see ... it's an evil plot by the greedy bastards who run ScubaBoard and their wealthy patrons who want to prevent people from learning how to dive more economically ... I get it now ...

Standards allow today's beginning diver to be air certified to 130' deep in probably less than 20 days; but then 20 years later, perhaps more than 2 thousand dives later, that diver is a fool to go air deeper than 130'??? Speaking of Standards; how many of you remember typing something along the lines of ... PADI Standards really only apply to PADI Training and PADI Program dives? Are not the other agencies Standards along those same lines?

Standards shmandards; are there not many SB posts from Tech Divers, even supposedly respected Tech Instructors, talking about their solo cave diving. Tell me a major cave agency that condones solo cave diving. But most solo cave divers do spend some serious coin to get there, so it seems to be just fine to talk about it on SB!

And what about Rebreather Pilots and supposedly respected Rebreather Instructors? Think there are no posts on SB from them about solo rebreather cave diving? Think they spent some serious coin to get there? Are there any major cave or rebreather agencies that condone solo rebreather cave diving? But it seem to be just fine to talk about solo rebreather cave on SB!

If Solo Diving got a forum with just one really small agency certifying solo ....

... true ... but Cave, RB and Solo diving are all discussed in the Tech forum ... which apparently you also have an issue with ...

What could possibly help is more participants in that now Tech forum thread letting SB know how many of us feel the subject isn't really a tech subject; it's way more of an advanced / recreational subject to me.

How's that working out for you?

Why keep complaining? The thread's open ... so obviously there's not an objection to you discussing it in the appropriate place. Why not take this opportunity to help all those people in need you were talking about?

Perhaps you should consider starting your own board ... then you could organize it anyway you like ... and keep people you don't like from participating. It's been done before, you know ... then you and the three or four people who agree with you can have a nice conversation ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DevonDiver]

I think an argument could be made that since "Tech" money is being made by so many players, including the 800 pound gorilla, it's money that's making the real decisions. Perhaps poor third world natives are expendable in the grand scheme. Keeping the air knowledge from those without He seems to insures enough collateral deaths to make regular gruesome marketing pitches for the greedy with the He.

Do some very basic research on technical diving courses....really, just Google....

"Tech" courses start with deep air diving. Advanced Nitrox.... Decompression Procedures.....Extended Range. All of those are AIR courses....and give access to ~50m depth range.

I just don't see your point... it isn't a "great helium conspiracy". There's plenty of excellent training that allows divers to progressively gain the skills and knowledge needed to incrementally increase their depth range, without the expense of He.

This sounds more and more like ignorant paranoia to me

That you're. only looking for some justification as to why you should be respected by technical divers, discussing technical subjects... when, in fact, you have no technical knowledge or training.

Standards allow today's beginning diver to be air certified to 130' deep in probably less than 20 days; but then 20 years later, perhaps more than 2 thousand dives later, that diver is a fool to go air deeper than 130'??? Speaking of Standards; how many of you remember typing something along the lines of ... PADI Standards really only apply to PADI Training and PADI Program dives? Are not the other agencies Standards along those same lines?

I don't see what is hard to understand about the concept of progressively advancing you education/training, in line with the progressive advancement of your diving thresholds.

A diver isn't a fool to go below 130'. BUT they are a fool to dismiss the valuable training that allows them to do so safely and in full awareness of the risks involved.