Is cave diving safer than Open Water

[Manatee Diver]

Also I would wager that 90% plus of those cave fatalities would not have been fatalities in open water.

In recent years that wouldn’t be a great bet. A good portion are oxygen related, sometimes too much oxygen, sometimes too little oxygen. That would be lethal in OW too.

 

[arew+4]

In recent years that wouldn’t be a great bet. A good portion are oxygen related, sometimes too much oxygen, sometimes too little oxygen. That would be lethal in OW too.

Would these be primarily rebreather related, or bad/wrong gas.

Because of your talking about anything other O2 toxicity from going to deep on EAN, you're way into the weeds of technical diving, which I have already stated falls outside the scope of open water diving due to the physiological ceiling.

 

[The Chairman]

What is your training/experience that would lead you to this conclusion? Or lend any validity to it?

I can't answer for him, but it's not just training: it's the mindset. Cave divers have to plan more meticulously, and our gear has to be maintained meticulously. We can't afford oopsies a thousand feet back so we maintain our gear in a manner most divers view as obsessive. Moreover, the average OW diver lacks control and many experienced divers only have a modicum of control. I can spot a caver in OW in a second. Again, many OW divers see our attention to trim and buoyancy as obsessive. It kinda is and we're OK with that.

Most, but not all deaths in caves are OW divers and OW instructors thinking they're good enough without taking the time to get trained. They approach caving with the same lackadaisical attitude they approach their OW diver. Again, what works in OW is often deadly in a cave. So, the cave gets a bad rap when the real problem is the diver.

I'll post this again: If you really want to take your diving to the next level in terms of trim, buoyancy, situational awareness, gear awareness, mindset, and more: get cavern certified. It's a commitment to excellence that will increase your joy of diving.

 

[PfcAJ]

I can't answer for him, but it's not just training: it's the mindset. Cave divers have to plan more meticulously, and our gear has to be maintained meticulously. We can't afford oopsies a thousand feet back so we maintain our gear in a manner most divers view as obsessive. Moreover, the average OW diver lacks control and many experienced divers only have a modicum of control. I can spot a caver in OW in a second. Again, many OW divers see our attention to trim and buoyancy as obsessive. It kinda is and we're OK with that.

Most, but not all deaths in caves are OW divers and OW instructors thinking they're good enough without taking the time to get trained. They approach caving with the same lackadaisical attitude they approach their OW diver. Again, what works in OW is often deadly in a cave. So, the cave gets a bad rap when the real problem is the diver.

I'll post this again: If you really want to take your diving to the next level in terms of trim, buoyancy, situational awareness, gear awareness, mindset, and more: get cavern certified. It's a commitment to excellence that will increase your joy of diving.

That has not been accurate for quite some time.

 

[The Chairman]

The cavers without the obsessive mindset are the ones whose bodies have to be recovered. The cave does not welcome those who are careless or indifferent. Cave diving isn't for everyone.

 

[PfcAJ]

There was a DAN study (not quite sure about figures right now) states that vast majority of unfortunate fatalities happened to divers after basic (open water) training within very first periods of their diving career. If I can find I will share it.

Consider that most people who get certified do not continue to dive much past their initial certification. People dive a few times then quit.

 

[The Chairman]

People dive a few times then quit.

It's hard to enjoy the dive when you have no control or next to no control.

That has not been accurate for quite some time.

Many points were made, so you think they're all inaccurate?

 

[rexman24]

Firstly I am not overhead trained (yet) but my OC Tech instructor is so some insight is there.

Again, my opinion or understanding is once one have some technical training under the belt, once one comprehend concepts cause and eff7ect and of course big aspect of redundancy, chances for the situations going out of control reduces drastically.

That doesn’t necessarily mean all open divers are incompetent, but advanced level knowledge and understanding helps conducting riskier activities even safer than mediocre stuff. Yes open water diver may float but cave/tech diver won’t let the situation develop to even that point. Prevention is always easier than cure.

There was a DAN study (not quiet sure about figures right now) states that vast majority of unfortunate fatalities happened to divers after basic (open water) training within very first periods of their diving career. If I can find I will share it.

I have studied tech diving manuals too. It doesn't make me qualified to talk about tech diving though. There are many levels of ocean divers just like there are many levels of cave divers. Everyone had to start somewhere. Ocean divers can and do practice redundancy just like cave divers. Extra mask, lights, a PLB, a pony tank, back up computer, a number of signaling devices all things that go with me. Some all the time, some only on advanced dives.
I seem to remember a study that showed diving fatalities were pretty even between newbies and experienced divers. I don't remember where I saw it though.
Really this is all conjecture anyway until someone finds reliable data on accidents per capita for Cave vs. Ocean diving.
I do know when I lived in Florida it was fairly common to hear about fatalities in the springs but not so much in the ocean.

 

[PfcAJ]

It's hard to enjoy the dive when you have no control or next to no control.

Many points were made, so you think they're all inaccurate?

Agree on control.

If I thought the rest was inaccurate I’d include them as well

 

[Lorenzoid]

I seem to remember a study that showed diving fatalities were pretty even between newbies and experienced divers. I don't remember where I saw it though.

It has been said that many incidents involving very experienced divers have stemmed from complacency and/or from over-estimating their abilities. The divers in the middle of the experience spectrum are probably the safest divers.