Is a Student "Entitled" to a Certification just because they paid for a course?

[DevonDiver]

If the industry, in general, was more insistent about the requirement for refresher/up-date training, then we'd see a big improvement in diver standards.

I think there are some definite benefits to the concept of have a 'current license', that needs renewal. Foremost, any diver that received weak initial training would be 'caught' and rectified in due course. It'd also cement the concept of having to retain skills and knowledge through ongoing post-qualification practice.

Just dreaming....

 

[TSandM]

Remember that all a certification says is that, at the time the person was evaluated, they met the standards. If the person develops bad habits or gets sloppy with time, that doesn't reflect on the original certification. And unfortunately, some agencies don't permit withholding a certification for attitude . . .

 

[Jason McAnear]

IIF the instructor and student are both willing to put forth the commitment, a near perfect rate seems plausible.

I agree..... the key word being "NEAR" perfect....

JMac

 

[DevonDiver]

Thanks drbill.... I had to share that one on the radio show this morning. Great response! I actually had two individuals (from one of our dive shops here) BANG on the window of the station and flip me off when I asked, "How can a dive shop advertise "100% of our students pass their IDC"?" I just have to question that 100%....... really? Everyone passes????

I've seen plenty of Instructor Development Course (IDC) centers offering such guarantees. It normally involves one of the following:

1) Students complete IDC, but aren't enrolled onto the Instructor Exam (IE) until the Course Director is satisfied they will pass.

2) 100% pass rate does not specify "first-time" - however, the course director will offer some form of free remedial training before a re-take of the IE. They may, or may not, pay for the re-take of the IE.

3) There is no set limit on 're-takes'... so an instructor candidate could re-test on successive IE's infinitely, unless they decided to drop-out. Hence, nobody fails... but some drop-out voluntarily. I assume that such a guarantee would be 'money back'... so the value of the guarantee would depend entirely on whether the student was paying for each IE. If they were, they'd be financially disinclined to keep paying for IE, as the costs would soon be greater than the IDC itself...

Bear in mind that the IE is independently assessed and a separate issue from completion of the IDC. The trainer is not the examiner - which prevents a conflict of interest when assessing candidates for qualification. We could, of course, debate all week about whether the IE assessment criteria was robust enough...

 

[boulderjohn]

when I asked, "How can a dive shop advertise "100% of our students pass their IDC"?" I just have to question that 100%....... really? Everyone passes????

I'll go with the masses-cert is earned; you pay for the opportunity to learn the skills and earn it. Not sure about passing rates for IDC, but I will say that the instructor that did my wife's OW claims that in his umpteen years of OW instruction, he's had exactly one person not finish. And, IMO, he goes about it the right way-he spends time with them to make sure that the student actually learns, rather than simply checking the box. No additional cost; all he asks is that the student put forth the commitment to learn. (and again, before being flamed as a noob, I know IDC and OW are apples and oranges) but my point is this-IF the instructor and student are both willing to put forth the commitment, a near perfect rate seems plausible.

skearse explained it correctly. The idea is that once you have paid for the course, then the instructor will agree to work with you until you meet the standard. You still have to meet the standard, but it is very possible for a school to have a 100% passing rate.

You are equating "nobody fails" with "everybody passes." They are not the same thing. I have never "failed" a student, but a number of students have not passed. During instruction they decided that scuba was not for them and they were not willing to put in the extra time it would take to pass. That was their decision. I would have worked with them until they were done.

 

[Lead_carrier]

..(snip).. . If the person develops bad habits or gets sloppy with time, that doesn't reflect on the original certification. (snip). . .

It probably shouldn't but it usually does.

 

[boulderjohn]

A couple of years ago, I taught a scuba refresher class (2 hours) designed to help people brush up on their skills prior to a dive trip. I always ask the students for their dive history. Two of the students said that they were doing their first dive trip since they were initially certified. In both cases, it was so long ago that they had never seen an alternate air source before and did not know what that was or how to use it.

Should I hold their initial instructor responsible for their lack of skills or knowledge?

Here in Colorado, the majority of people get certified in advance of a trip to a tropical vacation in a place like Hawai'i. We do the best job we can teaching them, and I feel that every student I have ever certified was ready to dive. The majority of these people will never dive again until the next time they schedule such a vacation, which might not be for many years. Skills will suffer.

I understand them because I was once one of them. I got certified for a specific vacation, with the plan of doing a few dives on similar vacations every few years or so. The difference is that once I got under water on that first vacation, I was hooked. Most aren't.

 

[DevonDiver]

A couple of years ago, I taught a scuba refresher class (2 hours) designed to help people brush up on their skills prior to a dive trip. I always ask the students for their dive history. Two of the students said that they were doing their first dive trip since they were initially certified. In both cases, it was so long ago that they had never seen an alternate air source before and did not know what that was or how to use it.

Should I hold their initial instructor responsible for their lack of skills or knowledge?

No... but you might hold them responsible for the fact that the divers were cognizant of the value of refreshing their skills before resuming diving.

Many aren't....

 

[skelso]

As a newly certified OW, I say not everyone should pass.

The class I took was a very fast paced class with little time for personal instruction. It worked for me but there were others in the class, who passed, that were clearly not comfortable with the skills underwater. It quickly made me realize I better ask a lot of questions before being buddied up with someone I don't know well. Just because they have a certification card doesn't mean they are competent to take care of themselves even under normal circumstances.

FWIW, my girlfriend was also in the class and struggled more than most. We spent a lot of extra time in the pool together working on skills, and I even solicited help from a friend, who had just finished his AI, to further hone her skills. We actually ended up paying an instructor from another shop to oversee her close out dives because the first shop had closed down by the time she was ready. I know it was money well spent but I wonder how many students would actually feel that way? I got the feeling that most assumed their payment for an OW class ensured the instructor would do what it took to get them through it.

 

[Edward3c]

Thanks drbill.... I had to share that one on the radio show this morning. Great response! I actually had two individuals (from one of our dive shops here) BANG on the window of the station and flip me off when I asked, "How can a dive shop advertise "100% of our students pass their IDC"?" I just have to question that 100%....... really? Everyone passes????

Interesting thread.

I was earlier today talking to my neighbour who's daughter is looking to dive.

I gave her the scenario of two instructors; one has a 100% pass rate the other a 90%. which would she use for her daughter?

Without any hesitation she opted for the 100% instructor. I asked why. Because she wanted here daughter to get a diving certification not the possibility of getting one.

Not an uncommon reaction from someone who knows nothing about the inherent dangers.

I explained some reasons for the other instructor not certifying 10% of their students and therefore being a safer option for her daughter, and I saw the penny drop that she hadn't even considered diving as dangerous, following the way its advertised in holiday brochures.

Regards