Is a God Needed for Morality?

[Thalassamania]

But evolution is absolute, the only way to opt ot is to choose to die without issue. It does provide an objective basis for right and wrong, and also provides for assured punishment for each who does wrong.

 

[H2Andy]

But evolution is absolute, the only way to opt ot is to choose to die without issue. It does provide an objective basis for right and wrong, and also provides for assured punishment for each who does wrong.

tongue in cheek?

the only "wrong" in evolution is to fail to survive, in my view, at the species level, and, ultimately, at the planetary level ... so long as life continues on earth (according to evolution) that is "right"

we, as a species, are pretty far along the road to "wrong" in evolutionary terms

 

[AXL72]

As far as Christianity, your opening statement is false so the conclusions that you draw are also false.

If you stopped part way through the Old Testament, your statement would seem true but the purpose of Old Testament law was to set the standard and show people that they couldn't meet that standard. If we add in the rest of the Bible we see that it's required that the Law be written to our hearts. Its not just your deeds that count but every thought. I would call that "morals". Rebirth in the Spirit (accomplished through Christ) and becoming a new creation is what gets you to heaven and not just acting good for reward.

Honest question,s and I am truly not bashing anyone. So, we all get to heaven, right. Then what? What do we do for a living? What good do we accomplish? Do we just sit fat, dumb and happy, pointing and laughing at everyone in hell? Or, do we find cures for diseases and help our neighbors who are still living on earth? Or, do we sit back and watch them suffer? Do we get to petition God for a pardon for uncle Joe down in hell?

"Once upon a time, there were 1,000 chinamen. Now look how many there are." How does heaven fit all the souls in it (not just people of chinese decent). Has hell reached its capacity yet?

And, if the bible is the word of God, how come there is sooooo much detail about witnesses this and witnesses that and all the other details on earth, but the bible is very high level and vague on the details of heaven and hell. I mean, if the bible is the word of God, I would at least think God talked about heaven and people's roles in heaven? It does say that those who are poor will be wealthy in heaven, yada yada yada. So is heaven like fantasy island for everyone who gets there? And if you are rich in heaven, what can you buy there?

What about racist and biggoted people? Are they up in heaven saying, omfg, look who Peter is letting into heaven!! There goes heaven! Do homophobes run for cover when a gay couple goes for a walk on a nice day in heaven?

Interesting questions awaiting interesting and colorful answers

 

[lamont]

Honest question,s and I am truly not bashing anyone. So, we all get to heaven, right. Then what? What do we do for a living? What good do we accomplish? Do we just sit fat, dumb and happy, pointing and laughing at everyone in hell? Or, do we find cures for diseases and help our neighbors who are still living on earth? Or, do we sit back and watch them suffer? Do we get to petition God for a pardon for uncle Joe down in hell?

how can there be any good in heaven if there isn't any evil?

 

[fabasard]

Playing devils advocate for some parts (Because I can)

MikeFerrera, I just remember looking at one of my Baptist preachers that I grew up on. He smoked, he drank, he cheated on his wife (MULTIPLE times). And this man was held up as a leader. No not all Christians are bad, but ALL SIN (Christians and nonchristians alike) Now how you FEEL about your sin is what sets you apart. As I see it, the Christians need a God to set absolution, but those in my case (agnostic) can feel repenatent on our own. I am sure there are even moral ATHEIST, I believe society dictates our morality. A headhunter who has never heard that killing humans is wrong certainly must feel no guilt or remorse when he takes a life. I think a person should be open to any possability, I mean what if the MORMONS had it right all along, or the Taoist? Or (in the bigger scheme of things) what i f God really is all things to all men and we ALL have it right (The Muslims, the Jews, The christians, the Druidics...) and you get into "heaven" based on your following of the rules that are laid down by God as you perceive It. (Just throwing out ideas, because I really have no idea, but I love a good debate on a good subject where people are willing to LISTEN to the other side)

Axl72, if you went back in time to say "ancient egypt" and you were explaining life to the locals (theirs and ours) wouldn't you be more specific with theirs (as you have ultimate knowledge (play along here, you have to be God)) than with yours. I mean imagine trying to explain a COMPUTER or a BCD to an ancient egyptian. Your gonna be a little vague on the details as they cant comprehend what your talking about.

Thalass....If you make it to heaven your only goal will be to sing the praises of God (whatever form It is in), who needs a job when your eternally happy and in a perfect body.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Honest question,s and I am truly not bashing anyone. So, we all get to heaven, right. Then what? What do we do for a living? What good do we accomplish? Do we just sit fat, dumb and happy, pointing and laughing at everyone in hell? Or, do we find cures for diseases and help our neighbors who are still living on earth? Or, do we sit back and watch them suffer? Do we get to petition God for a pardon for uncle Joe down in hell?

"Once upon a time, there were 1,000 chinamen. Now look how many there are." How does heaven fit all the souls in it (not just people of chinese decent). Has hell reached its capacity yet?

And, if the bible is the word of God, how come there is sooooo much detail about witnesses this and witnesses that and all the other details on earth, but the bible is very high level and vague on the details of heaven and hell. I mean, if the bible is the word of God, I would at least think God talked about heaven and people's roles in heaven? It does say that those who are poor will be wealthy in heaven, yada yada yada. So is heaven like fantasy island for everyone who gets there? And if you are rich in heaven, what can you buy there?

I wouldn't have any way of knowing anything about heaven and Hell beyond what the Bible says and, no doubt, I don't know all of that. I also don't know why God doesn't give us more detail but there is some.

I have to go to work and time is short so...without presenting scriptural support...I don't think there is anyone in hell yet. Refering to the saved, Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be with Christ. What the saved dead who are with Christ spend their day doing, I couldn't say.

The bible says that there will be a new Earth and that we will have new bodies. I think this means flesh, though, flesh without sickness or lusts of the flesh. I think there will be plenty to do.

What about racist and biggoted people? Are they up in heaven saying, omfg, look who Peter is letting into heaven!! There goes heaven! Do homophobes run for cover when a gay couple goes for a walk on a nice day in heaven?

I don't think sin will be an issue in Heaven.

Interesting questions awaiting interesting and colorful answers

Probably not as colorful as you were wanting, sorry.

 

[Thalassamania]

Thalass....If you make it to heaven your only goal will be to sing the praises of God (whatever form It is in), who needs a job when your eternally happy and in a perfect body.

Any god who needs me to sing praises is not likely worth praising (sort of a religious version of Groucho's, "I would not join any club that would have someone like me for a member.").

 

[Thalassamania]

the only "wrong" in evolution is to fail to survive, in my view, at the species level, and, ultimately, at the planetary level ... so long as life continues on earth (according to evolution) that is "right"

Actually survival of the individual is irrelevant, its only access to the gene pool of succeeding generations that counts, and we're about to overpopulate ourselves into oblivion.

 

[MikeFerrara]

God either wants to eliminate bad things and cannot, or can but does not want to, or neither wishes to nor can, or both wants to and can. If he wants to and cannot, he is weak -- and this does not apply to god. If he can but does not want to, then he is spiteful -- which is equally foreign to god's nature. If he neither wants to nor can, he is both weak and spiteful and so not a god. If he wants to and can, which is the only thing fitting for a god, where then do bad things come from? Or why does he not eliminate them?

You mean:


Therefore it follows that no god exists.

Earlier in the thread we spent some time on human suffering so I don't want to get too long but I highlighted the sentance in the above quote where I think the major mistake is. It asserts that God must be spitful if he would allow us to suffer. That assertion is contrary to what scripture tells us of God. It assumes that there is no eventual good or use in suffering, which is false.

It's a poor parent who shields their child from all trouble and solves all their problems for them. They don't learn anything and just end up spoiled useless brats. So there is sometimes learning in suffering. Also some need a crisis to seek or hear God. The Bible says that God uses all things for His eventual good.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Playing devils advocate for some parts (Because I can)

I think a person should be open to any possability, I mean what if the MORMONS had it right all along, or the Taoist? Or (in the bigger scheme of things) what i f God really is all things to all men and we ALL have it right (The Muslims, the Jews, The christians, the Druidics...) and you get into "heaven" based on your following of the rules that are laid down by God as you perceive It. (Just throwing out ideas, because I really have no idea, but I love a good debate on a good subject where people are willing to LISTEN to the other side)

Having a Bible handy, I don't think we should be open to anything since the Bible specifically says there are some things we should avoid. I think you raise another question though that has come up before and that is, what about those without detailed knowledge of the gospel. What level of specific knowledge is required? Can God make Himself known to a people without there being a Bible printed in their language or a minister handy? I don't know if He does but I'll bet He could if He wanted to. The Bible tells us a lot but it doesn't leave us without mystery.