Is a God Needed for Morality?

[Green_Manelishi]

Such a culture could not exist for any duration, since at it's heart would be the concept of deceit. Without a valid predisposition towards trust, societies cannot exist, and communication becomes impossible since there would never be a reason to believe that what one is saying is anything but a lie.

While your hypothetical is nice, but it is not a reasonable argument.

The cultures actually existed quite nicely until their encounter with a different culture and morality. They were then shown the errors of their ways.

 

[MSilvia]

i guess my question is:
can there be moral lives without God in them?

I don't think we can solve this by asking non-believers to formulate scriptural arguments, or by asking Christians to accept that their beliefs may not be universally true. What I think we can do is examine the question, and try to derive an answer from it.

The question is, "Can there be moral lives without God in them?"

If not, and assuming a moral life is an objectively verifyable thing, it should necessarily be possible to tell if someone has God in their life by the way they live it. If it is moral, they do. Otherwise, they may not.

Of course, arriving at a mutually acceptable definition of morality might be necessary for arriving at a consensus. If morality is defined exclusively as "acting in accordance with God's will", then that morality cannot exist without having God in one's life. If, however, a more general definition, such as "motivation based on ideas of right and wrong" is used, then yes... obviously you can have a sense of right and wrong based on any number of social, religious, experiential, or philosophical foundations which do not necessarily include God. The key point of contention may be whether or not you accept that a moral foundation different from your own can still be the basis for behavior that can be considered moral.

If I don't believe in your god, am I necessarily immoral? Am I amoral? Are my morals somehow less valid than your religious morals if they still permit me to function in society, have a fulfilling life, and act as a positive influence on the lives of others? I may go to hell when I die for not caring what any supposed god thinks about me choosing to act the way I think a person should instead of choosing to act like I've been told a god wants me to, but since I don't actually believe in an afterlife of punishment or reward, I'm far more concerned about how my morals influence things in my current physical existance.

Is it not enough to strive toward making this existance better for all?

 

[Soggy]

The cultures actually existed quite nicely until their encounter with a different culture and morality. They were then shown the errors of their ways.

What cultures are you referring to?

 

[H2Andy]

The key point of contention may be whether or not you accept that a moral foundation different from your own can still be the basis for behavior that can be considered moral.

the question can be asked a different way:

is there an absolute right and wrong?

or

do cultures make up their own right and wrong?


for exampe: is it right or wrong to make women wear veils and not be allowed to leave the house without male escort?

for the West, clearly that is "wrong" as it is a violation of human rights.

for some Muslim cultures, clearly that is "right" as it is the Law of God

who is right? who is wrong?

or is it both right and wrong, depending where you are?

 

[agilis]

AXL72 Re: Jesus' Mom

"IMAO....OMFG....so you would tap that @$$, huh?"

In a heartbeat.... unless doing so would cause me to dissolve while being eaten by killer angels, like those German soldiers who opened the Ark of the Covenant.

 

[Green_Manelishi]

What cultures are you referring to?

The ark came to rest, in pride the Tower was begun, therefore the languages were confused and the peoples were scattered; some took a very bizarre turn.

The Sawi Indians of New Guinea come to mind. Then there are the Acua Indians of South America. If you want an "interesting read" try The White Headhunter.
All are excellent examples of what happens when God is eliminated from the public forum. With no objective basis for right and wrong, each does what seems right in their own eyes.

 

[Soggy]

The ark came to rest, in pride the Tower was begun, therefore the languages were confused and the peoples were scattered; some took a very bizarre turn.

The Sawi Indians of New Guinea come to mind. Then there are the Acua Indians of South America. If you want an "interesting read" try The White Headhunter.
All are excellent examples of what happens when God is eliminated from the public forum. With no objective basis for right and wrong, each does what seems right in their own eyes.

I'll have to read up on those cultures. I suspect that you have something wrong. I cannot see how any society could flourish without a predisposition for trusting one another.

EDIT: I'm having a hard time finding anything about either group. "Sawi Indians" brings up 2 hits in google, both of which are regarding missionary work. Could you provide a link to some objective history about the group without a Christian slant?

 

[lamont]

The ark came to rest, in pride the Tower was begun, therefore the languages were confused and the peoples were scattered; some took a very bizarre turn.

The Sawi Indians of New Guinea come to mind. Then there are the Acua Indians of South America. If you want an "interesting read" try The White Headhunter.
All are excellent examples of what happens when God is eliminated from the public forum. With no objective basis for right and wrong, each does what seems right in their own eyes.

we've got the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc as examples of what can happen on the other hand which are just as valid as the examples that you give.

 

[sea nmf]

This is a fascinating thread. Really good stuff! The greater percentage of replies seem to focus on Christianity vs athieism. That wasn't the question, really. Some of you have broadened your scope to all religions, and that makes more sense.

Pre-religion, caveman days, it appears that the group cooperated together in order to survive. This would have been the first human society with its own ethics based on necessity. Just maybe, this is where morals come from, and not diety or religion.

I'm actually on the fence about what drives morality, but not on religion. I have trouble with all religions that I've looked at so far. I also believe that diety is not the same as religion. Religions generally have a diety; that's true. But I believe diety can exist without religion.

 

[MSilvia]

But I believe diety can exist without religion.

I believe the converse is also true... religion can exist without diety.