Is a God Needed for Morality?

[JessH]

Matthew 19:8
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Just one case of the new testemant saying that the laws in the old testament were meant specifically for what they could handle.


From Matthew 19: Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

I just like the whole love your neighbor as yourself, fits with my morality better than a lot of the old testemant stuff.

~Jess

 

[JessH]

This is good:
"On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. (Deuteronomy 17:6)

"A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed. (Deuteronomy 19:15)

Since many people on death row were convicted without 2 or more witnesses can a good christian still support the death penalty in its current state?

~Jess

 

[MikeFerrara]

So this is the part where you say "well scholars now say that it should be translated 'You should not murder'" and that the death penalty is not murder because the bible says that it isn't murder if.......... Well that sure sounds like someone trying to figure out how to justify their beliefs and actions by bending their moral code to me....

If you want to get into translation.... from http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nokilling.html

Taken together, we can discern a simple definition of ratsach: It refers to any killing that is done in the manner of a predatory animal -- which means either 1) as an angry reaction to stimulus; or 2) lying in wait, as one waits for prey. We have no difficulty or contradiction in Scripture with this verse, or with places where God declares judgment of death upon men.

To use the word murder would seem to be a better translation.

However, Jesus made it clear that more is expected and that to be angry and unforgivving toward someone is to be guilty of murder. A short article that helps put it into a New Covenant perspective http://www.biblestudy.org/question/notkill.html

I think your question though deals more with a governments rights under God to have laws and to judge and punish for the breaking of those laws.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Theology aside Mike, my analysis & opinion is based on Psychological/Sociological tenets on applied Motivation Theory, and throw in a little Game Theory as well. . .

That's all well and good but as I see it you were applying those theories to a statement of values or theology that wasn't correct.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Matthew 19:8
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Just one case of the new testemant saying that the laws in the old testament were meant specifically for what they could handle.


From Matthew 19: Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

I just like the whole love your neighbor as yourself, fits with my morality better than a lot of the old testemant stuff.

~Jess

ok but nitice that the new covenant raises the bar rather than lowers it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

This is good:
"On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. (Deuteronomy 17:6)

"A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed. (Deuteronomy 19:15)

Clearly you and I are not able to execute someone even if we hade two or more witnesses. Under our governments law I think that would be called murder.

Since many people on death row were convicted without 2 or more witnesses can a good christian still support the death penalty in its current state?

~Jess

Now your essentially asking if our whole judicial system and the level of evidence required for conviction is Biblical? I'm really not sure that I can answer that.

A week or so ago we had a local 16 year old Girl murdered by a convicted murderer who was just let out of prison a few months ago. They worked together and she was on her way home from work and saw him stopped with car trouble so she stopped to help. We're out in the country and people do things like that. He said he killed her because a funny feeling came over him. He confessed and led police to the farm field where he had dumped her body. I sure can't support that...the girl didn't do anything wrong to deserve death as far as I can tell.

 

[fabasard]

I am an agnostic, and have put myself on a spiritual quest if you will. Yes, people can be moral and just in the abscence of a higher power. I am a moral person, but only because my parents laid such a guilt trip on me that I fear the WHAT IF....(Does God exist). Some of the thoughts that run through my head may land me in Hell someday, but I can promise you I am living a more righteous life than a good many Christians (and pagans and...) If you FEAR, you too can be a good human being. But thats just me, your resident agnostic (The only religeon with PROOF).

 

[Soggy]

But there are/were(?) cultures whose moral code included befriending then betraying and inviting them to dinner where they would be the main course. Is their culture "disfunctional"?

Such a culture could not exist for any duration, since at it's heart would be the concept of deceit. Without a valid predisposition towards trust, societies cannot exist, and communication becomes impossible since there would never be a reason to believe that what one is saying is anything but a lie.

While your hypothetical is nice, but it is not a reasonable argument.

 

[agilis]

Two relevant points re: the New testament quotes:

For centuries it was impossible for a woman to bring rape charges against a man because of that two witnesses thing. It influenced common law, and statute law. It still does in some places.

"Love thy neighbor as thyself", and "Do unto others(etc.)" are found, virtually word for word, in several non-Judaic, non-Christian religions and ethical systems, some considerably older than the written testaments of either. These are beautiful and fundamental ethical precepts, the foundation of secular humanism. The historical record clearly demonstrates that they did not originate in and are not exclusive to the Judeo-Christion religious tradition. In fact, in my experience and from my observation, people outside that tradition are more likely to practice these moral imperatives than those within it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Some of the thoughts that run through my head may land me in Hell someday, but I can promise you I am living a more righteous life than a good many Christians (and pagans and...)

I don't know that there's much to be gained by measuring our "righteousness" against others. Fom a Biblical perspective there are none righteous. Our unrighteousness may come in degrees but we're all there. One of the first things that comes (or should come) with Christianity is a conviction of sin and the resultant broken spirit and a broken and contrite heart. Someone in the midst of mounting a personal defense or justifying themselves based on the relative righteousness of someone else is probably missing the point and I doubt they are very broken or contrite.

By the same token, to make general statements about Christianity by pointing our that some Christians do this that or the other thing isn't telling us very much either. We are all in our own place with our walk with God. That conviction of sin that I mentioned above comes from the Holly Spirit. It doesn't come from other people. I doubt that very many seek Christ because they believe themselves to be sinful. On the contrary, from personal experience, I would say that when you first start getting to know Christ is when you begin to see just how "unrighteous" you are. I thought I was doing ok until the Holly Spirit showed me different. When the accusation and conviction comes from the Holly Spirit who dwells within, there just isn't anyone to argue with or defend yourself too. The only option is to seek forgiveness. The good news is that through the Holly Spirit comes the power to turn from the transgressions that you've come to understand.

We hear a lot about Christians being hypocrites when it's pointed out that they too sin. Christians can of course be hypocrites but I don't think the fact that they sin is what makes them hypocritical. I think it's when their sin alarm is set to trigger on what someone else is doing rather than on themselves.