Is a God Needed for Morality?

[Thalassamania]

Again with the Christians vs aethiests! You can't narrow down this discussion to just those two!

Ask the question as how many are believers in God and how many aren't. You do know that Muslims also believe in God, right? Whether or not you believe they are moral is not the question. They believe they are. So, can a person still be moral and not believe in God?

Sorry, this narrowing of the scope bothers me!

Give the number of predestination types that you find in religious circles I have to ask, "can you believe in god and still be moral?"

 

[H2Andy]

here is something that Kierkegaard hinted at, but i don't believe he ever stated outright (i could be wrong)

God is right because he is God, not because he is moral. what God says is good is good. What God says is bad is bad.

when you believe in GOd, you believe in God, not in what is moral.

thus, to believe in God is to chose God over morality

let's ponder that one

 

[Hemlon]

do you have the statistics?

No, I don't. I have seen stats regarding this in the past, but I don't have them now.

 

[Hemlon]

Give the number of predestination types that you find in religious circles I have to ask, "can you believe in god and still be moral?"

I often have that same question.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Is a God Needed for Morality?
no

 

[MikeFerrara]

MikeFerrara, the quote posted by Thalassamania is an abbreviated summary of the Epicurean paradox, and the summary conclusion in that post "Therefore it follows..." is not from Epicurus himself. Epicurus was one of the three or four most influential of the ancient Hellenic philosophers. His Paradox was presented more like a mathematical proof, not as a general statement, and it's called a paradox because it leads to no clear conclusion. Epicurus himself thought speculating about God was a useless exersize, because it was manifestly obvious (it still is) that the human intellect was unable to determine the attributes of the Gods, beyond the obvious logical requirements that if there are any Gods, they must be immortal and they must be good. He certainly did not believe in life after death, and his philosophy of life was centered around seeking the greatest pleasure and avoiding pain to the greatest extent possible, both individually and for all persons collectively. He saw the greatest pleasures as intellectual. He influenced 18th century Naturalists, 19th century Pragmatists, and even Karl Marx.

He was unconcerned with the question of God's existence, seeing it a irrelevant and, ultimately, unresolvable. I think he would have laughed at people who picked up magic books to look for answers to subtle and complex questions. 'Let's see, it says here that I must not think this and that I should avoid that", etc. This is an infantile and truly primitive way to approach life. It can also be quite dangerous. Just as liberty requires constant vigilance, and democracy a continuing engagement in the process, effective ethics and morality must be developed and cultivated individually, through education and an inner process of reflection, not received as a package from some external source.

I wonder if he is still laughing.

1Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the fooloshness of the message preached to save those who believed. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;

 

[H2Andy]

I wonder if he is still laughing.

'course not ... he dead

 

[Thalassamania]

'course not ... he dead

Not where he eats, but where he is eaten. A certain convocation of politic worms are e’en at him. Your worm is your only emperor for diet. We fat all creatures else to fat us, and we fat ourselves for maggots. Your fat king and your lean beggar is but variable service, two dishes, but to one table; that’s the end. A man may fish with the worm that hath eat of a king, and eat of the fish that hath fed of that worm … a king may go a progress through the guts of a beggar.

 

[Bryan]

Give the number of predestination types that you find in religious circles I have to ask, "can you believe in god and still be moral?"

Time is but a dimension. We're familiar with 4 of them... but many more are predicted mathematically.

Let's assume for discussion that God who created the universe, including its dimensions, were somehow constrained by the 4th one. Wouldn't that be a surprise?

Predestination is only a problem if you assume time can only be traversed in one direction, and that the past and future are too remote to be arbitrarily visited by any entity.

Freewill and predestination are handily encompassed simultaneously.

 

[H2Andy]

Not where he eats, but where he is eaten. A certain convocation of politic worms are e’en at him. Your worm is your only emperor for diet. We fat all creatures else to fat us, and we fat ourselves for maggots. Your fat king and your lean beggar is but variable service, two dishes, but to one table; that’s the end. A man may fish with the worm that hath eat of a king, and eat of the fish that hath fed of that worm … a king may go a progress through the guts of a beggar.

very nice...

i love Hamlet

alas, Polonius does not fare so well...